D&D 5E (2014) Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Undrave]

If it isn’t maybe think a bit more creatively.

AUGH so tired of that line! EVERY class can be creative! It's not an excuse! It's just victim blaming and basically comes off as "you're not a good enough player".

 

[Mort]

AUGH so tired of that line! EVERY class can be creative! It's not an excuse! It's just victim blaming and basically comes off as "you're not a good enough player".

And what's more, many (too many) DMs (In my experience) are much more permissive for "thinking creatively" with magic than with skills or maneuvers or combat stunts.

But even if it WAS equal, as you say, it's not like only martial characters can "think creatively."

 

[tetrasodium]

But that's the number of slots, not the number of spell known.

Let's talk about a level 7 wizard. Let's asume that he has found some spells but not a ton (so, 1 per level). Level 7 is definitely "mid level" but it's where spellcasters start being pretty powerful so it's good point to look at. Let's also say he has 18 intelligence.

This wizard's spellbook will have 4 cantrips + 6 starting spells + 12 "level up" spells + 7 "found" spells, for a grand total of 29 spells. Each spell is a tool to fix a "problem" - some challenge or obstacle you can face in your adventures. Sure, the wizard can only prepare 11 of these... but 15 with cantrips. And they have ritual magic. Let's just assume they know 1 ritual per level, and this wizard now has NINETEEN TOOLS in his pockets to fix problems.

Let us make a spell list

Cantrips:
Ray of frost
Light
Minor illusion
Mage hand.

... maybe I should stop here? This loadout is already equal to some of Troika's! magic users! This PC can attack and slow down enemies, make light, make illusions, and pick up things at a distance. If you knew someone in real life with those powers, you would call them AN AWESOME WIZARD.

... but no, let us continue

Level 1
shield
Fog Cloud
disguise self
Ritual: detect magic

Level 2
invisibility
Suggestion
Misty step
Ritual

Level 3

fireball
dispel magic
Fly
Ritual Leomund's Tiny Hut
Ritual Water Breathing. (I decided to put 2 at level 3)

Level 4
wall of fire
Evard's Black Tentacle

Look at the number of things this guy can do! All the problems he can solve! He can fly, deal with magic, protect the camp at night, deal with water adventures, control areas and do damage, mess with the mind of people, pretend to be someone else, teleport short distances, protect himself with a magical shield. this isn't a "fire mage", this is a "do almost anything" mage. And there are still a few more spells in his books that are more "niche" but very useful to have on certain daies.

This isn't some kind of theoretical mage, this could be a real PC with a real spell list.

The number of must take spells needed to be effective goes up as a caster levels & frankly a ton of them are low level spells a caster starts off in the hole on how many they can have prepped right out of the gate Your post inadvertently some of the problem while trying to dismiss it


You blithely want to assume that a wizard finds 1 spell/level.... Not so fast...

Spoiler: Can you point m to the spell scroll/spellbook equivalent of this?

Magic weapons & armor are objective improvements to make noncasters more powerful but those are not relevant to the vast majority of caster builds where there is zero meaningful analogue. Even if your 1 spell/level is true at a given table it doesn't actually increase power at all unless it's one of the few ritual spells and one of the few that are actually useful or one of those generally quite niche... and most importantly the wizard doesn't already have the spell on that scroll through other means like choosing it at level up, You can see the results of this clearly in real time by tossing a +1 weapon identical to one of the +1 weapons already being used by a group with all +1 weapons.

XgE 135/136 talks about 3 different ways of awarding magic items to the party & even includes this handy table showing how many magic items of a given rarity that should be awarded to players at various level ranges.

That's all well & good, but according to this table giving a level 5 fighter a +1 greatsword & +1 plate is just as good & properly equipped as giving a wizard of the same level a single use scroll of fireball(You can be pretty much guaranteed it's already known) & scroll of feign death(notably less useful than a +1 sling instead of that +1 plate). At no point on those pages is the word spellbook spell or scroll. You will find the word spell spellcaster alongside monk in that pink sidebar up there urging the gm to "be generous with magic weapons". Tell me again what justification you are using to award these 7 free spells?

Lets say the wizard gets a "rare" spellbook the atlas of endless horizons. Notice how that doesn't actually prepare any spells & even then barely does anything. Great, level 5 wizard has his one rare item... that's just the same as giving the level 5 fighter a rare greatsword flametongue so he can choose between 2d6+1+mods slash & 2d6 slash+sd6+mods fire or just sell one & buy something nice.


It's funny you ask if you should stop midway through though... you haven't even started & even including UA content wotc hasn't published anything to even let you start deciding where to set your assumptions

 

[ph0rk]

There is a section on changing how short as long rests work if you want to use them.

That only discusses changes to the frequency of rests, not the ratio of SRs to LRs.

Changing this ratio markedly alters class balance.

 

[Oofta]

The system doesn't come ought and plainly say that deviating from the suggested rest schedule changes class balance - it should, and offer some alternative rest schedules or resource recovery schemes to maintain that balance for different games. Gritty Realism, for example, doesn't do much if there still happens to be 1-2 encounters per Long rest.

The books can only hold your hand so much. The DM needs to make the game their own. Fortunately that's fairly easy to do with 5E.

 

[ph0rk]

The books can only hold your hand so much. The DM needs to make the game their own. Fortunately that's fairly easy to do with 5E.

This is a core mechanic in this edition and many, many players still don’t grok it.


A paragraph describing what it would do (not unlike the sentences warning about what spell points do to warlocks) is all that would be required.

 

[Oofta]

This is a core mechanic in this edition and many, many players still don’t grok it.


A paragraph describing what it would do (not unlike the sentences warning about what spell points do to warlocks) is all that would be required.

Yeah, if only they had a chapter on running the game in the DMG.

 

[ph0rk]

Yeah, if only they had a chapter on running the game in the DMG.

You mean Chapter 8 of the DMG, where they don't discuss long vs short rests at all?

Or the rest variants section in Chapter 9, where they do not discuss the ratio of long to short rests, or the impact changing that may have on game balance?

If you're going to be snarky, check the text first.

 

[Asisreo]

You mean Chapter 8 of the DMG, where they don't discuss long vs short rests at all?

Or the rest variants section in Chapter 9, where they do not discuss the ratio of long to short rests, or the impact changing that may have on game balance?

If you're going to be snarky, check the text first.

I believe he is referring to Chapter 3 of the DMG under the subheader "Short Rests". Its a quick sentence or so about how many short rests a party will generally need over the course of a full adventure day. Of course, the subsection about what entails a full adventure day is immediately above that.

 

[ph0rk]

I believe he is referring to Chapter 3 of the DMG under the subheader "Short Rests". Its a quick sentence or so about how many short rests a party will generally need over the course of a full adventure day. Of course, the subsection about what entails a full adventure day is immediately above that.

Where in that section does it discuss the impacts of deviating from the standard ratio of short to long rests?