Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Looks like it was the Complete Warrior, it might have some gems to inspire, thanks for the note
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D&D 4E Mass Battle Rules for 4e
- Thread starter Garthanos
- Start date
Looks like it was the Complete Warrior, it might have some gems to inspire, thanks for the note
thanson02
Explorer
Poking my head out of my cave.....
I have used some of these my games. My characters are currently around level 16, give or take. I was going to hold off on the mass battle until after they hit level 20 and moved into the epic tear.
Basically what we've come up with is we've used gargantuan sized swarm creatures to qualify as solder units. Mechanically they work the same as companions and can be put in charge of different duties that the commander, the PC, wants them to do outside of combat.
As for how in combat works, 4E already has a solid tactical layout for how combat works. We've just been using the mechanics that are already there and swapping out individual monsters with swarms. In addition, I also swapped out the bloodied mechanic with a moral check. Basically the commander does a skill check (diplomacy, bluff, or intimidate) towards the units Will DC.
I've also been playing out with some combat base skill challenges wear instead of just doing straight up combat, the unit and the commanders are attempting to perform specific actions within combat. There's also certain scenarios where a boss monster will try calling out the Unit Commander and in that case, the arena rules that were presented in the unearthed arcana, I believe, would come into play as well.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Wonder if we can do something in tandem....and bring in the special maneuvers
Being Bloodied makes them subject to rout by way of intimidation checks (basically the normal rule) == you can also take out enemy leadership which instant bloodies them. This introduces a new maneuver which is very pc like.
You can force enemy movement via either bluff or intimidate and if not threatened perhaps diplomacy or even a heal check to allow allied swarm spending a healing surge (1 per tier) == Things like the Parley trick earlier mentioned might induces opportunity to do so.Though companions already can be affected by pc induced use a healing surge abilities.
Bluff might also have the conferring advantage thing happening at large scale (could these require you leveraging your own swarm to help apply the bluff? and help apply the intimidates? or add modifiers as a aid other on your check so the more swarms you have the better your check)
You might be able to conscript/marshal new troops (heal or regenerate the swarm when your troops encounter an allied town with diplomacy or intimidate if you have already used diplomacy once and variations of these things. This to allow some terrain impacts that are less obvious.
Once you start thinking of really large swarms I find my brain wants broader ways to interact with them and I think having some of them more tightly defined would be useful.
However sometimes you might just need the more definitive super broad impacts like taking out the leadership defined or suggest with additional ones improvised mostly by DM and players and have them achieved flavor wise as individual successes and failures in a skill challenge.
I am not familiar with the arena rules...
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thanson02
Explorer
Based on what you wrote, I think you and I are on the same page for the most part. Many of the options you brought up that would involve either rallying the troops together or causing enemy troops to flee were things that I was connecting with the morale check. I also like the idea of using your bluff check to cause enemy troops to think you're going to go one direction when you're really going another way. Adds a level of strategy to the combat field and since for each combat is tactical to begin with, the most you'd have to do is just make sure that the units have the specific combat actions you're looking for the same way a particular monster would. You might even actually be able to take a solo monster and just reskin it as a unit.
One thing that I've really had to keep in mind when I'm coming up with my home brewed stuff is thinking about it from a story perspective before a tactical perspective. What sort of stuff on the players going to run into that's going to help drive the story and the combat forward. Watching movies like Braveheart have been useful for this for me. At one moment, your people are standing ready as a swarm of monsters are coming at you and next thing you know you're completely surrounded by chaos. You might be fighting for 3 rounds straight and then get a lull which will allow you to reassess to see where things are at and then you might fight for another four rounds before some champion of the enemy units sees you and decides to call you out and mark you in single combat all the chaos of battle continues around you. This will be the start of the thing where a Combat Challenge (a collection of smaller combat interactions that drive towards a specific goal or objective) would come into play. There's different strategies that the allies will use and there's different actions that the enemy units will use in relation. Coming up with an outline scenario to help the DM keep track of it all while the players are engaging on their side, at least for me, helps keep it straight.
As for the units, I found so far, that using the monster rolls in the monster manual has been useful in regards to their function in combat. Particularly the skirmisher and the solder. Brutes and controllers I find usually end up being independent agents on the field or in smaller clusters so having a swarm version of them doesn't make much sense. One of the movement actions that I had from my soldier units was Reformation where they would take their move action and restructure how they are formed. Skirmishers on the other hand, are kind of nebulous by nature so having a specific action to reform them didn't seem to make sense. Also, I had both my soldier units and skirmishing units have artillery as a secondary role that they could take up if they wanted. It depended on whether I wanted to be frontline fighters or if I wanted to be in the behind the front lines shooting volleys of arrows or other things at the enemy.
As for the arena combat rules, they were introduced in an article called "Fight!" Written by Robert Schwalb (I love all his stuff) in one of the Dragon Magazine articles. The article was also republished and Dragon Magazine Annual on page 75 if you have access to that. I believe the article also talks about pit fighting and one-on-one combat when you're surrounded by NPCs and other monsters watching you go at it with your enemy. In the area of combat, most of those folks would be distracted by people attacking them so if anything, if you hit the edge of the arena there is a possibility that you might be attacked by another monster.
So that's the stuff that I've been playing with regarding Mass combat. Like I said, I haven't had a chance to really have my party deal with a large army confrontation, but I was planning on having more of that come up once they got towards level 20 and above. Right now, they're dealing witha bunch of Hill and Earth Giants in the Revenge of the Giants Adventure trying to keep them from releasing a primordial before redirecting them back into the Tomb of Horrors. We will see how things go.
thanson02
Explorer
A continuation of what I posted, I was talking to my wife about this conversation today and we got talking about the sense on the player side and I also realized that depending on how big the army was coming at the players, you could also treat it almost like a massive hazardous warm that pours down the land, almost like a cloud of acid, concept-wise, that rolls down the hills. Except in this case, the cloud is a swarm of orcs or other type of monsters and the DM would have to roll against the players Reflex DC in order to inflict damage on the players. Then have additional stuff going on in addition to the standard combat. Structure wise, this would be a lot like a Skill Challenge.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
The hazardous terrain is certainly part of it many include auto damage if you were inside its aura. (and ofcourse enemies and allies can generally enter the same squares as a swarm) - perhaps shield wall maneuvers are damage resistance and stop other swarms at the edges minimizing mutual damage dealing by them.
In some sense an army could be seen as too large of bag of hit points for heros to just mow through *hence the take out the leader move to bloody it and use aid from your own swarm to gain sufficient intimidate to run it off. (a swarm might be seen to enhance its leaders intimidate) . The leadership are both the reason the swarm works and functions at its level and kind of like critical hit locations. Heros acting as leaders probably start with higher intimidate. (their presence in effect enhance allied hoards)
This one explicitly mentions the difficult terrain
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Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
The above lacks leader dependence mechanics... but has a lot of feel
Allowing skill use like bluff and intimidate or even diplomacy in a parlay as we mentioned before to influence enemy positioning even if individual attacks cannot makes sense.
Can you use stealth as damage reduction against the swarms aura... so you can reach the leader?
Or less explicitly is that just part of the skill challenge.(perhaps even for defeating a swarm that is too large to defeat directly) ie - perhaps the reach and defeat the leader skill challenge is basically analogous to a McGuffin subquest part of defeating.
Allowing skill use like bluff and intimidate or even diplomacy in a parlay as we mentioned before to influence enemy positioning even if individual attacks cannot makes sense.
Can you use stealth as damage reduction against the swarms aura... so you can reach the leader?
Or less explicitly is that just part of the skill challenge.(perhaps even for defeating a swarm that is too large to defeat directly) ie - perhaps the reach and defeat the leader skill challenge is basically analogous to a McGuffin subquest part of defeating.
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Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Of note size-wise the above is only appropriate really for about a squad of troops (around 10 or 12).
This represents perhaps sort of a very minimalist swarm of orcs.
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Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
The above could be handled by practices or rituals OR improvised (with significant effort and cost thank you DMG 2)
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Closed Formation and Shield Wall
It occurs to me that Troops could in many cases have open and closed formations perhaps the Savage Throng of Orcs above would only have an open formation. Closed formation allows troops to block passage of enemy troops, and perform a shield wall barrier. (ie enemy troops cannot enter their space) where as open formation allows them to cover more ground (so the throng above covers 6x6 perhaps) , Changing formation is a move action. Open formation might reduce vulnerability to area and close attacks.
It occurs to me that Troops could in many cases have open and closed formations perhaps the Savage Throng of Orcs above would only have an open formation. Closed formation allows troops to block passage of enemy troops, and perform a shield wall barrier. (ie enemy troops cannot enter their space) where as open formation allows them to cover more ground (so the throng above covers 6x6 perhaps) , Changing formation is a move action. Open formation might reduce vulnerability to area and close attacks.
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