D&D 4E Mass Battle Rules for 4e

[Garthanos]

We could very much tie abilities of troops to leadership. Some troops might only have closed formation if they had a leader to establish discipline and similar thing.

In the context of players then allowing troops to use closed formation could be something achieved by skill application (or perhaps martial practice could change troops to always have it ie - training).

 

[Garthanos]

https://trollitc.com/2010/09/16/mass-combat-with-dd-4e-formations-as-swarms/

Discusses this

A quotable quote I think points out something often not realized

The “hit points” of the swarm don’t represent the combined life of each individual man but rather the swarm’s cohesion. When the swarm is dropped to zero HP the survivors break. Actual casualties are up to your discretion, as few or many as is appropriate for the race. For reference, historical formations could break with as few as 20% casualties.

Casualty usually includes captured by the enemy and similar things not always dead. And the leaders call retreats or parlay etc to keep losses down. A measured retreat is also distinct from a route.

He says something that seems odd however and presumes a 4x4 square has way more members than reasonable

generally use a swarm of humans some 4×4 squares in size. The swarm represents a formation which is tightly packed with soldiers, shoulder to shoulder, shield to shield. Normally a 4×4 square could hold 16 men, but for purposes of this swarm, 80 or 100 men is more like it.

Ouch yes I do indeed see a centurion of soldiers as a single unit against paragon tier enemies or even maybe a legion but over estimating crunch space even in a tight formation doesn't work for me. the 4x4 space is enough for a patrol in tight formation ie 20 to 25 members not 4 times that. This brings up an issue that I have had with D&D you cannot represent well the awesomeness of Epic within the game board limited space. I think we are in epic moving to something more theatre of the mind.

The following sizes and numbers still assume tight formations.

• 2x2 fireteam or personal guard (4 or 5) this is basically like a normal set of minions who act as a team supporting one another so they arent taken down simply in one shot.
• 3x3 squad (10)
• 4x4 patrol of 20 to 25
• 6x6 platoon (40 or 50)
• 8x8 company or centurion 100
• 12x12 Squadron of (200 or 250)
• 16x16 Battalion 500
• 24x24 Legion 1000

4e has a serious significant lack WRT larger Swarms ...

The Black Fang Hyena Pack is basically a 2x2

The Orc Throng is a 3x3 huge and about a squad

The Angry mob is Gargantuan level 5 and about a Patrols worth of people maybe.. however once you hit Gargantuan the size in squares is kind of 4x4 or more.

 

[Garthanos]

An angry mob I can see having a "rabble rouser" who keeps the team charged up take him out and they can be considered bloodied then let diplomacy route this force (intimidation not required) heck the rabble rouser might be defeatable with social skills.

 

[Garthanos]

Just found Heroes of Battle and it looks like it has really interesting presentations which could be invoked as part of skill challenge and similar things. Almost feels like 4e in some ways.

 

[Zeromaru X]

I really like the idea of swarms for mass combat. Is way easier than my method. There any handy PDF compilation?

In one of my campaigns, when the players had to deal with an orc horde, I used minions as common soldiers and my players had to play a skill challenge to maintain morale and lead their army. Any significative failure meant the lost a number of soldiers to either battle or desertion. While, any success mean they defeated a number of enemies. I also did the same for the orcs.

High ranking officers (normal monsters or NPCs, and the PCs as well) had auras that helped or hindered the minions.

It was fun, but I feel the swarms are way faster to play.

 

[Garthanos]

I really like the idea of swarms for mass combat. Is way easier than my method. There any handy PDF compilation?

My current plan is to build up a bunch of swarms integrate the ideas with martial practices and alongside various martial controller builds and subclasses make my own Martial Power III. does that count

Marshalling Troops effectively let you hire troops for cheaper than normal and prices will be integrated with skill challenge and cost scenarios. (and comparable to rituals)
Martial Mastery lets you enhance troops in various ways or turn villagers into an effective unit (as well as teach heros Martial Techniques analogous to magical weaponry)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I still think that a battle is most effectively, in 4e terms, an 'adventure' (or maybe an SC if its not as important). Various things happen, but its ENTIRELY PC-centric. If the PCs direct units in battle, then they make some checks, if they fight, they make some checks, etc. I wouldn't really bother with giving units of 100's of creatures combat stats. Certainly some unique enemies might show up and create a real combat encounter, the ordinary rules should handle it. OK, 40 orcs show up too, you can certainly call them '4 swarms' and throw them in there as well, that can be perfectly interesting.

I just don't see 4e needing a mass battle system. Obviously if you have a bunch of wargamers who WANT to play such a thing, by all means break out your Chainmail and go at it! This is a much more solid rule system than anything TSR has published in the decades since. However, I don't think such things mesh well with 4e, really. I would consider it sort of an 'other thing' that you did for the pure fun of doing that, and leave the RPG aspect aside.

Classic D&D was a bit more aligned towards that sort of thing being a part of the game, but I can tell you from personal experience VERY FEW entire groups of players are interested enough in mass combat to actually make it something you should use in a D&D game, except as backdrop. IME most of the players are bored by it, and it takes a LOT of time to churn through...

 

[Garthanos]

I still think that a battle is most effectively, in 4e terms, an 'adventure' (or maybe an SC if its not as important). .

Skill challenges are probably my personal favorite interaction with this.... but there is a part of me that thinks playing it out in terms of explicit swarms might be interesting.
4e is already very tactical and Elite and Solo Swarms etc might make sense too.

What happens when large adversarial swarms overlap. partially

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Skill challenges are probably my personal favorite interaction with this.... but there is a part of me that thinks playing it out in terms of explicit swarms might be interesting.
4e is already very tactical and Elite and Solo Swarms etc might make sense too.

What happens when large adversarial swarms overlap. partially

This is why I say that you should, in that case, resolve things with Chainmail (or one of any number of other fine mass combat systems which have been published over the years). 4e's system is designed for small scale tactical combat between heroes, with swarms are sort of a tactical edge-case that adds a bit of variety (a monster that takes damage a bit differently and has a couple oddball movement rules). It doesn't hold a candle to something like Chainmail as a mass combat system. So, yes, mass combat is tactically interesting, and that is exactly what makes me NOT want to play it out with any rules offered by 4e, or anything I'm likely to hack together. Chainmail has had very extensive playtesting and decades of use. Its a great system.

 

[Garthanos]

This is why I say that you should, in that case, resolve things with Chainmail.

My only recollections of chainmail were the times I tried to figure out what it meant in the context of early D&D. So I am less familiar with its broad game appeal.

If you want to sell me on it i will listen but I am more inclined at the moment to come up with rules about increased aura damage based on amount of overlap.


For example if a swarm overlaps another swarm increase aura damage it deals by N per 2 squares. Shield walls will then not only restrict enemy movement but make the fight last much longer