Mass combat rules

hculpan

Explorer
I have begun work on a set of mass combat rules for D&D, but figured maybe I should check for others before putting too much work in on it. I've looked around for some but have not found any that are satisfactory, including the ones in AEG's War and Quintessential Fighter. I've even thought about just doing a conversion of either of the old Battlesystem rules, but this seems an unsatisfactory solution. So two questions:

First, does anyone know of any such rules out there that are d20/D&D compatible?

Second, assuming there are none and I finished my own, is there any interest in such a set of rules?

Thanks.
 

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i did this thread once shortly after sitting down and begining my mass combat rules. here are the general responses i got.

people seemed to want the following things in no particular order. flexable rules that follow the core mechanics of dnd as much as possible. the ability to make pc's either the most important troops out there or as insignifigant as everyone else or anywhere in between. the ability to do battle by air, sea land or any combination of the three. magic rules that do not require a whole book unto themselves. the ability to finish a war with under ten rolls or to make each battle take hours on end. they did not express an interest in being forced into using a calculator during battle. most of all though what was not wanted was another miniature game that tried to pass itself off as a dnd mass combat system like chainmail. it was made clear that minis should be entirely optional.

some wanted more feats, spells and prestige classes some said that they would not buy a book full of such material. in short my friend, make rules you like, you can't please everyone. chances are if you like the rules set, many others will as well.
 



That's actually a pretty good responce, because it is unfortunately all to true. It is maybe not the most helpful responce, but it is going to be hard to be helpful without writing the rules for you.

Basically, mass combat rules can be divided into one of two groups. Those that want the mass combat to take a while, and those that don't.

Every other interest can be seen as a special case of that.

For instance, some RPG groups don't often have mass combat in thier games, but when they do they expect to take a whole session (or maybe a whole weekend) to play the combat out in as elaborate and satisfying manner as possible. For this group, having the mass combat game be a game unto itself is fine, because it doesn't interupt play often and when it does it is a special occassion.

On the other hand, some RPG groups find themselves facing mass combat situations every time they turn around because the PC's have become lords and rulers in thier own right, with armies to command and legions of followers. After awhile, these groups are pretty much forced to abandon using a full blown resolution system for all but the most important battles.

Then again, some RPG groups don't want to do mass combat at all. They consider it tiresome and think it gets in the way of what they want to do which is roleplay. Nonetheless, the DM and players will occasionally find their RP has taken them to a situation where resolution of a mass combat would be 'nice' and the DM, if he had some simple system, would rather use it than 'simple' DM fiat.

And finally, some RPG groups would rather run detailed mass combats than anything else they could do and become engrossed in the moving of armies.

So basically, you have two choices. Quick and simple, or detailed and gory. Finding a balance between these two is very hard. Finding a balance that pleases everyone is impossible. Instead, you should strive to meet the goal of a system that can play out in X ammount of time, where X is a number convienent to some large portion of RPG groups. I'd say idea time frames are probably 6 hours, 1 1/2 hours, and 10-15 minutes. For each length, you'll find some large audience.

I've personally been involved in RPG inspired mass combats (using Battlesystem) that took up a two car garage, something like 6000 counters, and nearly 24 hours of continious play to resolve. Although there are some things about it that are ok, Battlesystem is in my opinion an example of what not to do.

Of all the attributes that you could have in a mass combat system for an RPG, the single most important IMO is scalability. Very very quickly an RPG campaign can move from needing the ability to resolve combats with a couple hundred on a side, to a couple thousand on a side, to tens of thousands on a side as epic story lines progress towards thier conclusions and PC power and influence grow.

Scalabilty is not easy to achieve. In a sence the only way to do it is provide several levels to the game and let the DM choose the one that best suits his needs at the moment and thats almost like writing several different systems.

Of course, the easy solution to scalability is to say that a clash between units of 100 or 1000 troops is identical to a clash between units of 10 troops. Problem is that it is not.

Most mass combat systems are enherently tactical and make tactical considerations the foremost or even sole consideration in thier design. That's fine for set peices that occur in a setting vacuum and involve relatively small numbers of troops (a couple hundred), and most players are going to want something that resolves X vs. Y when the RPG decides X vs. Y occurs.

But tactical games aren't the only possiblity. You can play games on a strategic or operational level. Some DM's, especially those running PC's who are rulers, are going to want operational or strategic resolution systems. As the number of troops becomes large, tactical considerations become almost a wash and can be reduced to a couple of mere numbers that indicate how potent the unit is tactically. What those DM's are ultimately concerned about is not only whether X unit survives to fight again, but also how much it costs to move X unit from here to there and whether or not the PC can pay for it and whether the army can support itself in the field if he can't. Operational level games are particularly suited to providing to DM's that need to arbitrate the outcome of entire wars but have no interest in setting down and resolving the scores of battles that take place in them.

Finally, a peice of advice. Don't produce supplemental information for the game before the game itself is complete (and a success). Don't worry about mass combat feats, prestige classes, spells, and so on and so forth until the system itself is complete and tested. You've got enough on your plate as it is.
 

Define mass combat? Massive armies, or just too many NPCs to handle with the usual combat rules.


And are there any good Drow involved?
 
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A couple of thoughts

Mass combat systems... well, there's no doubt a need for them in RPGs. Here's a few things that may help focus you.

First, you will absolutely have to figure out how to include the PCs (otherwise, why are spending time resolving the battle), and that means figuring out how to handle adventurers. If you are also shooting for 3E compatibility, the obvious way to do this is to take into account that everyone has a level of something (even if its just commoner) in 3E. The tricky part will be parlaying info like "this unit has 56 1st level commoners" into something that can be handled with one die roll (a d20 die roll, obviously).

Understand that you are basically going to be designing a game-within-a-game, kinda like blitzball in Final Fantasy X. It's good to have a tie into the core system, but you're going to have to develop some things that D&D just isn't meant to handle and that won't be relevant outside the mass combat arena, since the focus of D&D is on individual characters (and that's how RPGs developed from wargames, after all).

Also, it would be well to heed the words of wisdom regarding complexity here. My suggestion would be to start simple, and add complexity as options.

Last, if you haven't played any wargames, take the time to do so before you design. These can help you get a feel for how people who are concentrated on handling wargames do it. There are tons of things to consider. For instance, do you use minis or not? Using minis has obvious disadvantages: it's expensive and space consuming. OTOH, if you don't use minis, then you will have to decide how to handle regulation of movement and distances between units. Seems simple, but virtually every wargame that uses counters uses a hex grid for this very reason. And if you don't use counters, what do you use? How do you represent the space a unit takes up if you don't use counters or minis? There are lots of challenges here.

By the way, if you're interested in having some collaborative help, I think I would enjoy working on this. Drop me a line if you're interested.
 

Thanks for responses

Thanks for the responses.

I did not know about either the Eden Studios product or the just-announced Malhovic Press book. Given that, I certainly don't need to add my rules to the mix.

It is frustrating though that the MP book won't be out until the summer and that the last update on the Field of Blood page was November of last year and it is still listed with a release date of TBA. And, of course, neither are of particular use to me now as I have a combat probably coming up in a few sessions.

The good thing about it, though, is at least I can just design what I need for the immediate future. This makes the task much simpler than putting together a whole system.

Celebrim: I considered some of the same issues that you brought up with scalability. You are correct, of course, that simply increasing the number of individuals per figure is not a workable solution. It has all kinds of impact on a variety of aspects of the battle. I've actually been talking with another fellow by email that is attempting such a task (i.e., a scalable system) and he is struggling with it quite a bit.

Redleg06: Mass combat as in armies, yes. Basically a set of rules to model fantasy/medieval battles.

Thanks again to everyone for the responses.
 


I actually liked the Open Mass Combat System. Versatile in the extreme and extremly generous with player input. I will use it as written with the exception of allowing the pcs to make a Battle roll(AEG's Rokugan) as oppossed to a charisma roll for the morale checks.

The major problem i have with systems released up to now and what i am hoping the MP supp will provide given the pedigree of the authors and publishers is a method of integrating mass combat into the EL/CR system. Otherwise it comes down to little more than rule governed fluff. I think the players should have just as much of a metagame incentive to participate in rules heavy 'events' as the dm and i think some method of assessing challenges and providing balanced rewards would help. It would help tie mass combat into the normal flow of the game as oppossed to simply being an exception.
 
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