Mass combat rules

[hong]

The PCs IMC are getting to the levels where they can take on fair-sized groups of enemies (say 50-100) with a good chance of success. Needless to say, I'd rather not play out a battle of this size using the standard D&D rules.

What books are out there that have rules to handle big combats? I'm not really looking to simulate a clash of armies. What I want is an easy way to handle individuals taking on hordes of mooks, without having to roll hundreds of dice or move around dozens of counters/minis.

This is a topic that's been rehashed a few times, but I thought it might be good to visit it again. (Not sure whether this should go in GD or House Rules; mods, please close whichever one is least relevant.)

 

[Dark Jezter]

Cry Havoc my Malhavoc Press has mass combat rules. From what I've heard, you can use the rules to resolve entire wars with a few rolls, or play them out on a battle-by-battle basis.

 

[S'mon]

The PCs IMC are getting to the levels where they can take on fair-sized groups of enemies (say 50-100) with a good chance of success. Needless to say, I'd rather not play out a battle of this size using the standard D&D rules.

Funny, I don't find this kind of battle takes all that long - fireballs can kill 10-20 mooks/round, Great Cleaving fighters can kill 8-13 if the enemy are stupid enough to attack them. That's why the default rule in the DMG is that defeating weak opponents garners no XP. You might want to avoid using minis and just play it fast & loose.

As I think I've mentioned previously, if a battle is likely to last a large number of combat rounds, I work out the average damage done on both sides over every 20 rounds (say) and apply that until one side is clearly losing.

 

[hong]

Funny, I don't find this kind of battle takes all that long - fireballs can kill 10-20 mooks/round, Great Cleaving fighters can kill 8-13 if the enemy are stupid enough to attack them. That's why the default rule in the DMG is that defeating weak opponents garners no XP. You might want to avoid using minis and just play it fast & loose.

As I think I've mentioned previously, if a battle is likely to last a large number of combat rounds, I work out the average damage done on both sides over every 20 rounds (say) and apply that until one side is clearly losing.

Yeah, but the players neglected to take fireball and Great Cleave, the silly gits.

In any case, I want something more structured than "play fast and loose", okay?

 

[S'mon]

Yeah, but the players neglected to take fireball and Great Cleave, the silly gits.

In any case, I want something more structured than "play fast and loose", okay?

No fireball?!
Well for large battles there's Mongoose's mass battle rules (in eg Quintessential Fighter & Slaine), or the abstract War Machine rules of old D&D (Masters set I think), which are great for huge battles with tens of thousands on a side. And there's the AD&D Battlesystem (1e or 2e). All those are more designed for opposing armies, though.
You could also convert PCs to the Warhammer Battle rules with a little work.

Really though, 50-100 opponents vs the PCs used to be a typical size for an enemy group in 1e-2e, or even on the small side (look at the 'numbers encountered' in the 1e MM - 30-300 orcs was standard), so perhaps 1st or 2nd edition AD&D would be the ideal system for your needs.

 

[GamerMan12]

While Cry Havoc rules may be your answer (I haven't read them) I would prefer to set something up that suits my campaign, YMMV. The following situations would all be different.

100 mooks rush party with no thought to tactics.

100 mooks intelligently engage party and are able to withdraw or change tactics based on what is happening, such as target the Wizard when he starts casting a spell.

In the first case, you can simplify things, with high AC characters only being hit by 5% of any attacks. If they are surrounded just simplify that to the 8 mook attackers on the fighter have a 40% chance of 1 hit, and if the fighter is high enough level and has cleave and greater cleave, he has a very high chance of killing all 8, say 95%. (Due to multiple attacks etc.) and even then he would still kill, say d8.

So for 3 or 4 rolls you can resolve a round of combat of 8 mooks attacking a fighter.

With bow fire, just have 5% of attacks be hits. If it is intelligent fire at least one hit will be against the Wizard
and the rest spread out.

For fireballs and area of effect spells, just rule how many mooks are in the area.

With this type of philosophy you can realtively quickly run through this type of combat, but still have it be D&D.


I don't like the idea of rolling a couple of dice and determining the whole outcome of a party combat. D&D should be personal and an individual/party struggle.

So with the second case, I would slog it out a bit more.

For army vs army, fine a few dice rolls are OK.

BTW, In my previous campaign, the only fight my (high level) players ran away from was when they faced a couple of hundred pygmy bowmen in Jungle terrain. The shower of arrows with 5% hitting, was too much for them.

GM12

 

[diaglo]

Original Chainmail by Perren & Gygax

edit: forgot Sword & Spells

or 1edADnD Battlesystem boxed set

or Companion Rules boxed set for D&D

or 2edADnD Battlesystem skirmishers handbook

or Quintess. Fighter for tur..d20

or the new Mini rules released this month.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

What books are out there that have rules to handle big combats? I'm not really looking to simulate a clash of armies. What I want is an easy way to handle individuals taking on hordes of mooks, without having to roll hundreds of dice or move around dozens of counters/minis.

Cry Havoc is the answer. It can handle individuals versus large units. The key is that it takes the standard d20 combat rules and scales them up to handle it on a larger level. So it gives you a means of deciding how many in a unit of 10 that 9d6 fireball takes out. If you're planning to do this more than once, I'd recommend it.

My players love the idea of wasting large hordes of low level critters, even if they do have Cleave and Fireball and don't get xp. It's just fun to lay waste to large numbers of enemies.

 

[Trainz]

Cry Havoc is the answer.

Is it based on Monte's rules, or is it generic to D&D 3.0 ?

My players love the idea of wasting large hordes of low level critters, even if they do have Cleave and Fireball and don't get xp.

Regarding that...

Is the following true: 128 CR1 critters equals 64 CR3 critters, 32 CR5 critters, 16 CR7 critters, 8 CR9, 4 CR11, 2 CR13, and so, 1 CR15 critters ? Or if it's not true, do you think it's a fair way to go about it ?

Thus, even though CR1 beast means no x.p. to a 15th level PC, 128 of them would still give him the same x.p. as a CR 15 bug...

 

[Silveras]

Is it based on Monte's rules, or is it generic to D&D 3.0 ?

Cry Havoc is Skip Williams' & Monte Cook's design of D&D 3.x mass combat rules.

Regarding that...

Is the following true: 128 CR1 critters equals 64 CR3 critters, 32 CR5 critters, 16 CR7 critters, 8 CR9, 4 CR11, 2 CR13, and so, 1 CR15 critters ? Or if it's not true, do you think it's a fair way to go about it ?

Thus, even though CR1 beast means no x.p. to a 15th level PC, 128 of them would still give him the same x.p. as a CR 15 bug...

I don't think there is any published formula like that. The DMG shies away from trying to say that numbers have that much effect. However, it does acknowledge that several creatures individually too low to be a threat can become one as a group.

The pattern you mentioned may work for some monsters, but not necessarily all. It probably works well as a rule of thumb for melee-only goons, but not necessarily anything with spells, or ranged attacks, etc.