D&D 5E Mass Combat

Tormyr

Hero
But there needs to be a significant advantage to using area attacks against a stand. If I cast a cantrip at a stand, that actually represents me casting it ten times over the course of a minute. That why the damage affects the entire stack, instead of just 1/10th of it. That's abstract, sure, but it makes sense to me. But fireball should affect the entire stack yet only take 1 action (6 seconds) to cast. So a wizard who could cast five fireballs should be able to easily obliterate 50+ orcs in a minute. That's the whole point of area spells.

If a wizard casts disintegrate or finger of death at a stack (a waste of a good spell), it should do a maximum of (max stack HP)/(number of creatures in the stack) but it should still only take 6 seconds. Area spells should do their full damage to a stack.

Likewise, a fighter should be able to do something like drink a potion or blow a horn of blasting without wasting a full minute.

Maybe it would be best to let every solo take one standard action and also attack one stack (or multiattack one stack), or just take 10 regular turns and not be able to attack any stacks. OR you make the PC actually fight out a 10 round fight against the surrounding monsters if he wants to take any action other than just moving or attacking a stack.

Also, these rules don't seem to deal with ranged attacks well. Being surrounded by troops shouldn't protect a PC from archers because 1) the arrows will be coming from above and 2) archers on the battlefield won't be shooting at any particular soldier, they will be attacking an area.

You bring up some good points, and certain types of magic could be challenging to integrate if one is concerned about verisimilitude, but I think I disagree on some points (numbered so they are easier to discuss).

1. Units are made up of multiple stands working together. When a unit loses half its stands, it has a chance of morale failure. The advantage that area of effect attacks give is that they can be positioned to hit multiple stands.

2. While a solo should be able to do something besides just attack, the granularity is not their. This is not D&D scaled up. It is a completely different combat system designed to scale up to a wargaming system. The time scale is different; the action economy is different; the movement is different. In normal D&D, a creature gets 10 actions per round. In Battlesystem D&D they get 1.

3. Some spells get wonky. Disintegrate and Finger of death could kill a stand even though I think it usually only works against 1 creature. This is a substantial bonus. Area of effect spells can do damage to multiple stacks. I think this offsets the wizard only getting 1 casting per round.

4. Combat is an abstraction in D&D. Wargaming combat with groups or creatures as stands or units is even more of an abstration. Don't expect it to make sense very much. Expect it to be as simple and fair as possible. (And yes, I consider allowing spells that target 1 creature to affect an entire stand without burning more spell slots to be a pretty good trade off. Without the abstraction, a fireball could conceivably miss all the creatures in a stand if they were at the outside corners of the 20'x20' square.

5. The solos probably should not get extra actions as it throws off the normal progression of the combat. Solos will already have actions, bonus actions, reactions the same as stands. Each of those stands is only getting the normal set actions, bonus actions and reactions as well, even though they have to fill a minute as well. A stand has multiple units in it. In normal D&D, some creatures could take actions while others attacked, healed or did something else. Stands honestly have a stronger argument for multiple actions than solos. But this is Battlesystem D&D. Everyone only gets the standard set of actions per round, even though it is a minute.

6. The fighter will already be able to multiattack the one stand or multiple stands with its movement in squares in between attacks. It gets its full set of actions for the round. Likewise, a rogue could use an item as a bonus action.

7. The thing to remember is that all the creatures are doing other stuff, this is just how we are abstracting it.

In short, I think that Battlesystem combat will work best if it is treated like normal D&D combat with the minimum of changes. Something similar to the following might work.
1. 1" = 1 square or 20'
2. Stands/Solos get their movement divided by 5 to get squares per round (or squares * 20 feet. So 30 feet of movement changes to 120 feet of movement per round. So multiply movement by 4 to get feet per round.
3. Stands that attack solos that are on their own make as many attacks as creatures in the stand.
4. 1 round = 1 minute.
5. Moral failure rule.
6. Solos can move with a stand and act independently but get protection from being mobbed.

I probably am missing something, but I could see the players at my table being thrown into a situation where they have to lead an army and being able to grasp the rules quickly because the action economy is not messed with.
 

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Tormyr

Hero
I was just looking through the Basic PHB and noticed meteor swarm. Opening up with this spell could turn the tide of a battle from the start. You could hit up to 4 stands with each of 4 meteors for an average of 70 fire and 70 bludgeoning damage to up to 16 stands of creatures. That could change morale in a hurry.
 


Gundark

Explorer
Isn't it Legend of the 5 rings that has an abstract combat system that focuses more on what the PCs are doing? I've never read the book but had it described to me by a friend.
Something that focuses on PC choices and where they are in the battle might be better than trying to emulate all the factors of D&D in a traditional battle
 

nomotog

Explorer
I would remove the maximum damage rule. You don't need it, it's clunky and I think it would Nerf some types of characters. The idea seems to be a way for the mechanics to emulate mechanics. It makes a lot of sense for one big strike to deal more damage (physical/moral) to a horde then a single member has hitpoints.

Why not let a horde regain HP or gain temporary HP?

Would it really be a big problem to have single target spells affect a horde? I would muse that just giving the horde an advantage on single target spells might have the right feel to it without being too complex a rule.
 

Here's a way to resolve mass combat that keeps combat simple and uses existing combat rules (for the most part) so that players of all classes can use their regular abilities to turn to the tide of a massive battle. This should also prevent the feeling that the DM is simply deciding the outcome of the battle which may seem very unfair to the PCs, especially if their army is at stake.

Depending of the size of the PCs' army, they may have more than one horde at their command. If the PCs stick together, they can only command one horde. If they split up each player could command his own horde. Naturally, giants, dragons, enemy commanders and spellcasters and similar creatures should all be represented individually with their normal game stats.
Heh heh I like it. You've basically put some Tunnel & Trolls in Dungeons & Dragons! :)
 

MasterTrancer

Explorer
I was just looking through the Basic PHB and noticed meteor swarm. Opening up with this spell could turn the tide of a battle from the start. You could hit up to 4 stands with each of 4 meteors for an average of 70 fire and 70 bludgeoning damage to up to 16 stands of creatures. That could change morale in a hurry.

Hehehe...well, it really should! :)
 

MasterTrancer

Explorer
Speaking of BECMI warmachine, I'm using it in my current 5e campaign.

That's really interesting: it's been a while since my last BECMI session, but I really loved the War Machine rules. Since I'm planning a comeback in the DM chair with 5e, could you give me more info?

Thank you so much.
 

Grainger

Explorer
It's been a while since I looked at it, too, but I wouldn't have thought that the War Machine was terribly version-specific. It just deals with creature hit dice (to determine level), then system-independent things like equipment quality, amount of training, troop numbers, etc. It should convert very easily to all D&D versions (maybe CR could be used instead of hit dice), and indeed to other fantasy RPGs.
 

PeelSeel2

Explorer
I've tried building mass combat systems for D&D-like games, and it's a real can of worms.

IMO, the best solution (and it ain't easy!) is to design a system that emphasizes "decision points" within the battle. The idea is that the game should focus on what the PCs are doing; showdowns with the enemy commanders, missions to seize key locations or scout the enemy, defeating siege monsters. The rest of the battle takes place in the background, using a highly abstracted system to resolve, with the "decision points" having a big influence on the outcome.

Trying to model mass combat in round-by-round detail, the way D&D models skirmish combat, never seems to turn out well.

That is the way I have always handled it. Works out great. Characters feel like heroes, the game stays an RPG and not a war game, and goes quickly.
 

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