Massive Damage effects

[ogre]

I like the massive damage rules and think they are a nice attempt to make combat a little less predictable. However, in play I have found them wanting. Not that they don't do their job, but they just don't bring hit points out of thier staple of comfort. There's no degree of damage, you're either fully capable or near-death. I purposely made the MD save more difficult, so the effects would apply more often, but not be as dehibilitating all at once.
So, I came up with a little variant. A scalable use of MD, which does the following (hopefully)
1) Introduce stage-based MD, where a character slowly gets dehibilitated, instead of perfectly healthy then suddenly drop.
2) Have the stages slowly dehibilitate the character, getting worse at each progression, until on the final stage, he's disabled, instead of dying.
3) The massive damage save DC is equal to the total amount of hit point damage taken.

Here's the rules I cam up with. Bring on your opinions please.

Massive Damage Effects
There are three stages of massive damage effects. When a character first fails a massive damage saving throw they acquire stage one of the massive damage effects and are Shaken. Each time they fail a massive damage save they progress to the next stage, so a shaken character goes into shock at stage two or a character already in shock becomes disabled at stage three and immediately drops to 0 hit points. If the character is shaken, in shock or disabled from some other means besides massive damage, the character's current condition applies, forcing the character to pass over that stage and automatically move to the next stage. However, it must be pointed out that if the character is nauseous for reasons other than shock, the 'nauseous' condition does not necessarily mean that the character is in shock and does not apply.
Removing one of the conditions, from successful uses of the Treat Injury skill for instance, moves the character back one stage. So, if a character that is disabled from massive damage is restored to 1 hit point he is now in shock. If he is then subsequently treated for nausea, he becomes shaken. A shaken character who has the condition removed is free of all massive damage effects, at least until he fails another massive damage saving throw.

Stage One: Shaken
Stage Two: Shock, effectively nauseated
Stage Three: Disabled

 

[Johnny Angel]

Have you playtested this? It seems to me that the massive damage system as it is punishes people for not putting their highest stat in CON. Plus, a lucky hit can put a character out of the action, dramatically changing the balance of an encounter out of pure blind chance. Characters should feel that something is at risk when they engage in combat, but one unlikely but devastating die roll shouldn't be the main threat hanging over their heads.

I like the way some other games give you different wound levels instead of hit points, and these wound levels have an effect on your ability to function. I'm thinking here of Savage Worlds, specifically, or Paranoia. I've considered creating a damage track like you get in Alternity with different effects as you get down the track, only based on hit points rather than your CON score. But this would require a modification of my chargen spreadsheet and would also de-standardize the sheet, making it less useful to anyone else out there who might be taking advantage of it. But your idea of a Massive Damage track that would be separate from hit points could serve such a function with little extra book-keeping. Hit points would still be an abstract counting coup, and characters could be nickled-and-dimed into submission, but I can see this making combat feel more deadly -- characters would find themselves woefully debilitated -- while what it really does is cushion the sudden death factor.

Furthermore, this can be integrated into the medical system. In my game I have elaborate rules to deal with healing so that it's neither magical ('poof' you're healed) nor is it nearly as limited. My campaign is a future campaign, after all, and field medicine is better, but not nearly as good as the Plastiflesh from d20 Future. I would probably want to assign a different Treat Injury DC to each level of the Massive Damage Track. I'm also thinking that the effects should be ones that can't be effectively healed in the midst of combat.

Also, it seems that with this system already cushioning Massive Damage, it's possibly overly generous to have stage 3 be Disabled. I'm thinking Dying is more like it, but if the person is stabilized they become Stable instead, and if brought up to at least 0 hp they become Disabled, or if more they are In Shock (nauseated).

Possibly, it would also make sense for Shaken and In Shock to stack, since it doesn't make sense that a person worse off, although reduced to one action, would take that action without the penalties he would have had before he got shot again.

It also occurs to me that you could have the three-stage Massive Damage track for Heroes and the regular Massive Damage rules for Ordinaries.

 

[ogre]

Well, to answer your first question, nope haven't playtested it yet.
Were you judging the MD systems as a whole when you say it kinda forces characters to put a high stat in CON? Or just this staged system, where the Fort save is drastically increased?
I agree with your point about tieing it to a medical 'system'. That's kinda what I had in mind. These conditions can be healed during combat to remove the penalties. I think you can remove Shaken with Treat Injury, no? As for nauseated, I added that as a class benefit to certain medical professions.
I chose disabled instead dying because I want that to come into play more. At happening only at 0 hit points, it almost never occurs. This system puts MD into a purely dehibilitation type system, where-as hit points are the domain of dying.
I agree totally, Shaken and Shock should stack. Good point!
Not sure I'd want to have seperate rules for heros and ordinaries. I like them both to have the same rules and don't think it should be much of a problem to have them too get slowly dehibilitated. Unless you're thinking its too much paperwork for the GM?

 

[Johnny Angel]

Yes, I was referring to the standard Massive Damage rules when I was complaining about the stress it places on CON.

As for Nauseated, I think it's odd to assume that it can't be treated to begin with. And especially since I'm running a future campaign, I assume it can be handled with standard pharmaceuticals.

A simpler track for mooks would make for less of a burden for the GM, certainly. I often use the same stat block for a handful of red shirts, tracking only hit points. But I suppose I could just write 'Shaken' or 'Shocked' by their hit point tallies.

I'll try it out with my d20 Star*Drive players this weekend, if we get into combat, and see how it plays. My feeling is that struggling against the results of a disabling shot is more fun than watching other people play after your character has gone down.

 

[Aussiegamer]

I tried to balance that affect in mine by combining Str and Con for the massive damage modifier.

Play testing id the best way to sort out issues, good luck

I used staggered and not shaken, as its the lesser of the two conditions.

 

[ogre]

Johnny, let me know how the playtest goes! I'm not sure when I'll get a chance to run another game anytime soon, so your input would be great.
Aussie,
What's the staggered condition? I don't see it in the d20 modern SRD. Is it from D&D 3.5? It could work, even if this system had 4 stages, staggered, shaken, shock, disabled. But, I did try and limit it to three, cuz how often is MD going to come into play during a battle anyway? I figured 3 times was pushing it. Anyway, what's it do?

 

[nerfherder]

Stage One: Shaken
Stage Two: Shock, effectively nauseated
Stage Three: Disabled

Coincidentally, it sounds like the Star Wars Saga Edition designers had similar thoughts. You might want to look at this for ideas.

 

[ogre]

nerf: ahh, so it is! I do like the 15:10 aspect, but it does seem rather bland. Maybe they expand the effects more in detail elsewhere? Like at -5 one move or standard action, or-10 also one half speed. Do they do anything like that or is it purely a penalty to roll?
Also, how is this penalty healed or removed? I think that's an even more important aspect of an expanded damage system, making field medics even more valuable and making the game far more interesting. I do like its simplicity though.

 

[nerfherder]

That's pretty much all the detail that's been released so far, so I'm afraid I can't answer any of your questions - sorry!. Since you & the SW designers seem to be somewhat on the same wavelength, it would probably be worth you having a look at the previews when they come out, to see if there's any details worth mining.

I'm sufficiently impressed by what has been revealed so far to pre-order the book for when it comes out in May.

Oh, one thing that occurred to me - the designers did talk about the Damage Track being used for Nauseated, Shocked, etc, to have a simple and consistent mechanism to handle all the conditions. I don't know whether that matches up to how you described it or not, though.

 

[Aussiegamer]

Johnny, let me know how the playtest goes! I'm not sure when I'll get a chance to run another game anytime soon, so your input would be great.
Aussie,
What's the staggered condition? I don't see it in the d20 modern SRD. Is it from D&D 3.5? It could work, even if this system had 4 stages, staggered, shaken, shock, disabled. But, I did try and limit it to three, cuz how often is MD going to come into play during a battle anyway? I figured 3 times was pushing it. Anyway, what's it do?

I invented it

Only allowed a single action per round, no other affect.

I use it as a short time affect, normally when hit and knocked prone until the creatures next movement.

I found the others to be a bit tough for what I wanted.