Massive Damage Threshold models

[Yuan-Ti]

Okay, I am working on the options for my upcoming Grim Tales campaign set in the 17th century. One of the advantages/disadvantages of using Grim Tales -- which is described by its own copy as a toolkit -- is that it encourages you to tinker with rules. Not just standard rules, not just the options offered in GT, but with the rules in GT even!

I am already tinkering with the magic rules to make a slightly higher low-magic setting than GT calls for. Now I am looking at the Massive Damage Threshold. I am considering one of the following and having trouble deciding:

1. Grim Tales moderate threat MDT; MDT is equal to Con score and the Fort Save DC is always 15
2. In Conan, MDT is 20 and DC is 10 + 1/2 Damage... so, a minimum DC of 20.

I don't like the first because higher level Tough characters become immune to the threat of even massively damaging attacks (other than the damage itself, of course). I don't like the second because I want the MDT linked to the Con score.

Any thoughts or ideas?

 

[Brad Hindman]

Any thoughts or ideas?

In Sidewinder: Recoiled we provided several Massive Damage options. One of which was,

MDT = Con score, DC = 15 + (Damage - MDT)

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I don't like the first because higher level Tough characters become immune to the threat of even massively damaging attacks (other than the damage itself, of course).

Immune?

How do you figure?

 

[Yuan-Ti]

Hmmm... and I have Sidewinder, but didn't think to look.

Let's see how this shakes out. Character takes 20 points of damage.

A. Character has Con 18
DC = 15 + (20-18)= 17
Con provides a +4, so the player needs a 13.

B. Character has Con 14
DC = 15 + (20-14)= 21
Con provides a +2, so the player needs a 19.

C. Character has Con 10
DC = 15 + (20-10) = 25
Con provides +0, so player needs a 25.

If I use the Conan method:
A. Needs to roll a 16
B. Needs to roll a 18
C. Needs to roll a 20

If I use the GT method mentioned:
A. Needs a 11
B. Needs a 13
C. Needs a 15

(All numbers ignore class Fort bonuses, of course.)

Hmmm... I am tough to satisfy. Doing the math, however, gives me some ideas.

 

[Yuan-Ti]

Immune?

How do you figure?

I didn't put that very well. But I was thinkig, if the DC is 15, you have used stat bumps to go to 18 or 20 Con, and have a class Fort save of +7... maybe a feat for another +2 and you have +13 or +14 to your Fort save. So you need to roll better than a 1, whether you take 25 pts or 50 pts of damage.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

The method I use is MDT = Con, DC = 10 + 1/2 Dmg. This assumes that average Con is 10 and therefore the average DC is 15. Of course heroes seldom have 10 Con, but that was my thought when I went with it.

Our game has pretty regular damages, though, as the most common weapons seem to be firearms. So we don't get any unexpected 50hp whacks from dragons and the like.

--fje

 

[Yuan-Ti]

The method I use is MDT = Con, DC = 10 + 1/2 Dmg. This assumes that average Con is 10 and therefore the average DC is 15. Of course heroes seldom have 10 Con, but that was my thought when I went with it.
--fje

I am leaning towards this, now. It is the same as Conan, but with MDT set by character Con. In some senses it punishes you for having a higher Con because when you do have to make a save, you aren't much better off than someone with a lower con in terms of what you have to roll.

A. Con 18 and takes 20 points of damage. DC is 20, need a 16 on the die.
B. Con 14 and takes 16 points of damage. DC is 18, need a 16 on the die.
C. Con 10, and takes 12 points of damage. DC is 16, need a 16 on the die.

The big advantages, as far as I am concerned, is that it scales with the damage and the MDT is linked to Con. A good compromise, I think.

Thanks for the comments so far!

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

What is the desired goal? (I'm assuming weapon damages in the 2d6 range, adjust accordingly)

Scenario A: Players must make fairly easy MDT saves on a regular basis. At mid to high levels, they will fail only on a '1', but the odds will catch up with them sooner or later. I don't want the characters to drop like flies, but I want them to be reminded constantly that getting shot isn't fun. The threat level is fairly constant, as crits are no more likely to be instantly deadly than regular hits. MDT 10, Save 5.

Scenario B: Characters shrug off most normal hits, soaking up the damage, but crits are especially deadly. Even a high level character can get whacked if he takes a bullet in the eye. Note: if you are playing where the GM has to award an action point to confirm a crit against a player, this option can garner some hard feelings. MDT: 15, Save: 15+1/2 Damage

Scenario C: Some characters are tougher than others. What might drop the wizard will be ignored by the fighter. Crits can be just as deadly no matter who you are -- a lucky shot is a lucky shot. MDT: Con, Save: Damage

Personally, I like (C). It keeps Con an important stat even for the finger-wagglers, keeps the brutes from being too cocky (yes, you have an MDT of 20. I rolled a 23 on 4d6. Make a Fort save of DC23).

(B) is good if you've got a combat heavy crew with good gear, good tactical sense, and a good sense of humor when you throw 'em an action point to confirm the crit and then roll max damage. The higher MDT keeps the checks to a minimum, so they are more likely to be whittled down than dropped with a single shot.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I use:

MDT = 10 + 1/2 level + Con bonus
Save = damage dealt
Massive damage takes victim to -1.

I'm using Armor as DR (Conan style) and few really high-damage effects, like powerful spells. Class defense bonus keeps Power Attack from getting out of hand.

This system results in a lot of downed PCs (currently, their average MDT is around 15) but since resurrection isn't available, they have a chance to get those Heal checks if they win. Perhaps not terribly realistic, but it's been fun.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Yea, I forgot to mention that I also use Damage Conversion armor ala Fewer Dead Heroes, so that generally knocks 1-3 points off any attack before it hits the PCs.

My full combat system is crazy-deadly, I guess. We have MDTs on flat-footed attacks and all crits. The major focus of that game, though, is NPC interaction. The characters are the owner/operators of a free trader air-ship. Alot of political intrigue. Heck, they're all busy making property deals, courting important families for marriage, getting married, and one is, I think, currently attempting to woo the hamadryad whose tree gave up a few hundred pounds for their enchanted figurehead. So ... while there's usually at least one combat of some sort every game meeting, it's certainly not supposed to be the focus, and my the rules we have for that game reflect it.

We also play a d20Modern based Dark*Matter game where I use damage conversion armor and MDT = Con with saves at 10+1/2 damage. And an Urban Arcana game without conversion, MDT = Con, saves = DC 15. It's one of the very flexible aspects of these systems that we really really like.

--fje