Master of Shrouds

[Alpha Polaris]

I have a few questions about the Master of Shrouds, from Libris Mortis.

First, it is well known that this prestige class can be accessed at 3rd, since the harshest prerequisite is Base Will Save +5, for which Wizard 1 / Cleric 2 or Cleric 1 / Human Paragon 2 both do the trick. Has this been errata'ed somewhere ? Summoning buffed up CR 11 critters by level 13 looks like a good deal.

Second, considering wiz1/clr2, if the wizard level uses the conjurer variant, does rapid summoning also apply to cleric spells ? Does it apply to the MoS SLA summon undead, which is "otherwise identical to the summon undead spell" ? On the same topic, if the character chooses the summoner domain (+2 CL to all conjuration summoning and calling spells), does the +2 CL apply to her SLA ? What about imbued summoning ? Or DMM imbued summoning (to leave the level unchanged) ?

Last but not least, can a Master of Shroud choose Quicken Spell-Like Ability on her summon undead ? If yes, can she summon any of her critters as a free action, or just the low-level ones (and how many of them) ?

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't have Libris Mortis to check the description, but from what you say:

Second, considering wiz1/clr2, if the wizard level uses the conjurer variant, does rapid summoning also apply to cleric spells ?

No. I think it applies only to Wizard's spells. The wording doesn't specify clearly, but 99% of the times class features related to spells are intended to work on spells cast as a member of that class.

Does it apply to the MoS SLA summon undead, which is "otherwise identical to the summon undead spell" ?

No. It shouldn't apply to SLA, only spells.

On the same topic, if the character chooses the summoner domain (+2 CL to all conjuration summoning and calling spells), does the +2 CL apply to her SLA ?

No. If it says "spells", only spells will be affected (but I don't have this domain here to check it out).

Last but not least, can a Master of Shroud choose Quicken Spell-Like Ability on her summon undead ?

Yes. I think this one works.

 

[Alpha Polaris]

For reference, the Master of Shrouds appears on Wizards' site.

No. I think it applies only to Wizard's spells. The wording doesn't specify clearly, but 99% of the times class features related to spells are intended to work on spells cast as a member of that class.

This would be a shame, since there's no mention of it in the text, and the augment summoning feat you gain at the same occasion works regardless.

No. It shouldn't apply to SLA, only spells.

Not to sound obtuse here, but this SLA mechanically just casts a spell : it works like a spell, you are the caster, you use your caster level to determine duration (then add your charisma on top of that)...

No. If it says "spells", only spells will be affected (but I don't have this domain here to check it out).

Here are some quotes:
Summoner Domain

Add +2 to your caster level for all Conjuration (summoning) or Conjuration (calling) spells.

MoS Summon Undead

This ability is otherwise identical to the summon monster spells, except that the Master of Shrouds adds her Charisma modifier (if positive) to the duration of the effect.

From there I was taking that everything that applies when a Master of Shrouds casts a summon monster spell also applies when she uses her summon undead ability...

Yes. I think this one works.

The tricky point here is that Quicken SLA allows a 10-th level caster to quicken a 1st-level ability. The question is then: what level is this ability supposed to be ? And is there just one abilty (as shown in the text), or is it a different ability each time you can summon a new monster (as shown in the table)?

 

[Li Shenron]

This would be a shame, since there's no mention of it in the text, and the augment summoning feat you gain at the same occasion works regardless.

I think it is just default of class-specific abilities regarding spells to apply only to spells cast from the class's spell slots. Multiclassed characters are simply not considered sometimes but whoever is writing the book, who then fails to specifically write "wizards spells". It's not a big deal if you allow it to work with cleric spells too, I just think that by default it doesn't...

Bonus feats are not exactly the same, even if they are granted by the class as part of a class feature. Once you have the feat, it works as the feat description unless the class which granted it specified otherwise.

Not to sound obtuse here, but this SLA mechanically just casts a spell : it works like a spell, you are the caster, you use your caster level to determine duration (then add your charisma on top of that)...

Yeah it's ambiguous... but technically there are enough differences to safely say that spells and spell like abilities are not the same. In many books there's material such as feats specifically targetted to SLA doing the same thing that other feats do to spells.

Also SLAs are always better than the equivalent spells, which is possibly another reason not to easily allow this.

The tricky point here is that Quicken SLA allows a 10-th level caster to quicken a 1st-level ability. The question is then: what level is this ability supposed to be ? And is there just one abilty (as shown in the text), or is it a different ability each time you can summon a new monster (as shown in the table)?

Well I cannot sort this out easily, because unfortunately this Summon Undead doesn't work like Summon Monster with regards of which monsters you can summon: SM has 9 separate spells, and SU instead is only one thing that grows in power.

 

[sukael]

Well I cannot sort this out easily, because unfortunately this Summon Undead doesn't work like Summon Monster with regards of which monsters you can summon: SM has 9 separate spells, and SU instead is only one thing that grows in power.

I'd say to treat it, per instance, as having the spell level of whichever spell's being used.

 

[Alpha Polaris]

I'd say to treat it, per instance, as having the spell level of whichever spell's being used.

That would be Summon Undead V, to summon shadows, which means it cannot be quickened (with QSLA) before 18th caster level, 20th character level for this build.

 

[Alpha Polaris]

Let me hijack my own thread for a second, with an unrelated question about the master of shrouds. What do you think happens to the shadow spawns when the summoned shadows disappear ? Do they:

• Follow their shadowy master into the Void and disappear, too ?
• Stay there, awaiting for orders ?
• Stay there, uncontrolled ?

I'm afraid it's not b, and I think by the RAW, it's c, but I can see why some DM's would quickly houserule it to a. If it's c, how can a Master of Shroud regulate the influx of shadow spawns ?

 

[Li Shenron]

Oh God...

If WotC ever releases a FAQ about this question, I'm quite sure that they would not allow a MoS to keep increasing the number of shadows under her control indefinitely.

As per the rules, it's not easy to say. Technically the spawns are under control of their creator, which is not the MoS but the summoned shadow/spectre/wraith. But their are under its control until its death, not "until it winks away", and they don't "wink away" with it because they are not summoned.

So perhaps the closest to the RAW *could* be that:
- the spawns remain there
- they are not under control of the MoS in any way

But then who controls them? Nobody knows where the original shadow is, maybe it's on another plane, does it still control them? In theory yes, because it's not dead, but can it communicate with them? So my interpretation would be that the spawns will finish the last task according to the master's will, then either:
a) stay there motionless awaits for orders that will never come
b) act as they please, because their master is gone

If you go route b) it's actually totally open, they could choose to just leave or to even attack the MoS and whoever else is around.

---

That said, if WotC ever releases a FAQ, they could try to avoid the problem entirely by making this case similar to "summoned creatures cannot summon other creatures" by stating a new rule that "summoned creatures cannot create spawn".

Personally I think that this create spawn ability could be a lot of fun, but shouldn't become a mean to raise an army, so I'd make a compromise and just say that "spawns flee or dissipates when their creators are gone". This is enough to boost your ranks during a combat, without carrying them over to the next combat (although I would allow the MoS to use another daily use of Summon Undead to let the previous shadow stay longer).

 

[Sithobi1]

Well, the duration of any spell the summoned creature has cast ends when it fades, and I'd argue that any other abilities(Su, Ex, Sp) also end, so the shadows would...die again? They wink out when in an AMF, for what that's worth.

 

[Alpha Polaris]

Oh God...

If WotC ever releases a FAQ about this question, I'm quite sure that they would not allow a MoS to keep increasing the number of shadows under her control indefinitely.

Agreed. But since we also seem to agree that the MoS does not automatically control the newly created shadows, it could be very difficult for her to handle that army, at least in the beginning: for a 5th level cleric 2 / conjurer 1 / Mos 2, who rebukes like a 4th level cleric, a shadow is not easy to rebuke, and I can't think of a cleric 2 spell that could handle it (hide from undead being a less than definitive answer).

As per the rules, it's not easy to say. Technically the spawns are under control of their creator, which is not the MoS but the summoned shadow/spectre/wraith. But their are under its control until its death, not "until it winks away", and they don't "wink away" with it because they are not summoned.

Agreed again.

Personally I think that this create spawn ability could be a lot of fun, but shouldn't become a mean to raise an army, so I'd make a compromise and just say that "spawns flee or dissipates when their creators are gone". This is enough to boost your ranks during a combat, without carrying them over to the next combat (although I would allow the MoS to use another daily use of Summon Undead to let the previous shadow stay longer).

Very nice twist, indeed, I like that. Thanks.