D&D General Matt Colville on adventure length

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
When the foregone conclusion is death, the only thing they will do is, y'know, rot.
Well, yeah, that would not be a very interesting character moment. Sorry, I think I must have missed some relevant context, because it was not clear to me that you were referring to situations where death was inevitable.
And when the foregone conclusion of a reality TV show about trying to complete an obstacle course is that you lose, because it was intentionally designed to not be completable...what character moments does that display, exactly?
Well, in the case of something like the original ninja warrior, it’s not really a character study. The interest there is partially in seeing how far the contestants will make it, and partly in the slapstick humor when they fail.
 

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Well, yeah, that would not be a very interesting character moment. Sorry, I think I must have missed some relevant context, because it was not clear to me that you were referring to situations where death was inevitable
In this topic, many CRPGs (BG3, Dragon Age etc) have an ending where the PC can sacrifice themselves in order to save the world.

I almost invariably choose that ending.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Are your play examples for Castle Amber played in AD&D or 5e? Cuz 5e takes ... longer. Everything takes longer. All the modern D&Ds do, as it's a consequence of expanded character options.
1e-adjacent...but given what I've seen here, slow-paced 1e-adjacent.
Castle Amber as written is definitely not CoS-length, but it can turn into quite a long adventure unless the group is literally just jumping from encounter to encounter post-Castle. There's a whole province out there to get mixed up in- it really is like a proto-Ravenloft :D
That assumes they stray off mission. They do have a specific mission while in Averoigne, though the module as written kinda leaves it up to the DM to make this clear and to provide the dots the players/PCs have to connect.

If they decide to stray off mission then yeah, they could be in there for the duration of the campaign.
 


Lanefan

Victoria Rules
When the foregone conclusion is death, the only thing they will do is, y'know, rot.

And when the foregone conclusion of a reality TV show about trying to complete an obstacle course is that you lose, because it was intentionally designed to not be completable...what character moments does that display, exactly?
The character moments it displays are those where you strain to get farther than anyone else has, even if it's not all the way to the end.

And when the foregone conclusion is death, the true character moments come in a) how you die and b) what you did in the career you had before you died.
 

Gus L

Explorer
... A friend has been running CoS for well over a year now..maybe two years, I'm not sure...with a group I'm not in. The various times I've seen/known Castle Amber run, it never took longer than 3 months (weekly play in all cases).
Of course - few things take as long as 250 page WotC tome. Adren-Vul?

I still find it funny that Coleville picked Castle Amber of all the 1E modules to make his point.

It's far closer to the modern epic then most. An entire secondary world/portal adventure with several chapters rather then a drop in location type ... so in many ways one of the least modular modules from the era. Not a bad one by any means, and I know he says he liked playing it ... but... Also I suppose Castle Amber is more in line with Coleville's preferred play style as it's far more structured, with clear story beats, and "trad" then a lot of the well known 1970's - early 80's modules.
 


EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Hack the computer.
Sure, that reveals that Kirk is so unwilling to accept the very premise of an unwinnable scenario that he would rather break the parameters of the challenge than engage with it on its own terms. It also kinda goes on to bite him when he’s faced with an unwinnable scenario that isn’t being facilitated by a computer he can hack.
I had genuinely considered discussing this, even wrote out a lengthy paragraph about it, and deleted it thinking "eh, that's just me enjoying the sound of my own voice." Perhaps I was mistaken!

The thing is, both sides have a point. The Kobayashi Maru scenario says, if you're gonna command, you gotta be able to pick your battles--and sometimes that means accepting that, even with magical technobabble, some problems aren't soluble without sacrifice. Of course, it does this in an extremely heavy-handed way, which rather cheapens the lesson if you do anything even slightly off the beaten path, but it's still a good lesson to learn. Kirk's point is, don't get complacent: creativity, particularly in the form of changing the rules of engagement, can wrest victory from the jaws of defeat. Of course, his problem is letting the perfect be the enemy of the good--and holding himself to an impossible standard, such that when it breaks in spectacular fashion (resulting in the death of his son), he's incapable of moving past it, and it haunts him for at least a decade thereafter.

Those are both valid points with pitfalls if taken too far. You could argue that the synthesis of the two comes together in the well-known prayer (probably, but not conclusively, originating from Richard Niebuhr): “God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things that I can; and the wisdom to know the difference.” The Kobayashi Maru tries to teach the former, the serenity to accept the things you can't change. Kirk preaches the latter: havea the courage to change everything you can. It's thus incumbent upon us to develop the wisdom to tell the difference.

In this topic, many CRPGs (BG3, Dragon Age etc) have an ending where the PC can sacrifice themselves in order to save the world.

I almost invariably choose that ending.
Often, so do I!

Because guess what? (A) The game is ending anyway. There is no more story to tell, except perhaps an epilogue, so the sacrifice does not come at the cost of my continued participation, indeed, the player usually gets to see all subsequent story regardless. (B) A noble sacrifice to save another is a beautiful end to a character's arc, especially if that sacrifice is the culmination of a story about someone who would never have entertained such a notion. (C) By that point, you presumably will have completed a huge amount of content, and can thus say that you really got quite a good journey out of it, as opposed to the way random lethality works in actual D&D games, where it strikes out of the blue and usually well before anything has been even remotely resolved.

That's why I always talk about random, permanent, irrevocable death. None of these sacrifices you speak of are random. They are very consciously chosen. I cannot overstate how VAST a difference a consciously-chosen sacrifice is over "random mook #112 got a lucky crit and you died." You'll also note how both BG3 and the Dragon Age games don't permanently kill characters off. BG3, you have the existing 5e rules, and every companion comes with one or more scrolls of revivify, and even those are rarely necessary because there's an NPC you can't avoid recruiting who can revive dead party members for you (albeit at a small gold cost.) DA games have nonpermanent death; characters stand back up. BG3 has non-irrevocable death; the dead stay dead, unless revived, for a cost. IMO, it's a slap-on-the-wrist cost and it would be implemented better if there were actual narrative consequences for death, as was the case in, frex, Planescape: Torment, but that's a separate issue.

Truly random, permanent, irrevocable death is rare in CRPGs, for a variety of reasons. That's why the best of them use costs and consequences that aren't the death of the player character in order to give weight to things. BG3, to continue the example, has the half-ilithid and full-ilithid transformations.

Also, there is the dark reflection if the "noble sacrifice ending": A character doing something monumentally and lethally stupid, which the player has been warned is monumentally and lethally stupid, and which they choose to do anyway, consciously and intentionally ignoring or dismissing the risk. That is also not a random death, but for rather a more disappointing reason. Namely, the player, ahem, fooled around and found out. A player who does this once usually does not need to be told thereafter that if you play stupid games, you will win stupid prizes, but if it does happen more than once, a heart-to-heart is almost certainly required.
 

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