D&D General Matt Colville on adventure length

[Parmandur]

DIdn't WotC, in their infinite Wisdom, try to fix this TWICE, once with the OGL/CC and once with the DM's Guild? WotC puts out a big module 1-2 times per year, and the 3pp and adjuncts fill in the gaps? That's what I was told the plan was.

I wager there is something more going on, and that sounds like opportunity cost. Selling one 300-page book for $60.00 is less cost intensive to create than selling ten 30-page books for $15 each.

They would be more like $30 each, which is an adequate explfor their non-existence in the market.

 

[Parmandur]

Well, that's because attrition-based games where you have 9 encounters per day are boring. 5-room dungeon or bust.

That's fine, those can be perfectly fun. But much like driving a Ferrari 10 miles under the speed limit only to the grocery store on Sundays, it's not quite the design intention.

 

[Parmandur]

I mean at first glance they should cost about the same to create. As they have the same number of pages, they should need the same amount of art and design / writing effort. Even the big books are created by a team working on different parts anyway. The difference is that in one case you pay $60 and in the other $150 for essentially the same content, that to me is why we have the former, not the latter

More print runs would drive up all the logistical costs: the difference in design costs can be seen in D&D. Eyond selling Adventures for $5.

 

[Parmandur]

Isn't that basically what Ghosts of Saltmarsh is?

When you analyze them, all the WotC books are basically that.

 

[MerricB]

They would be more like $30 each, which is an adequate explfor their non-existence in the market.

Goodman Games does publish physical adventures for 5E still.

Their 5E range includes...
The Prism of Redemption - $17.99 (64 pages, B&W)
Seven Days of the Serpent God - $10.99 (32 pages, B&W).

But they're one of the very, very few still operating in physical releases of this size. (If anyone can list a few other examples, I'd appreciate it).

Cheers,
Merric

 

[Remathilis]

They would be more like $30 each, which is an adequate explfor their non-existence in the market.

I was assuming a PDF style print run, but you are correct. Most of DM's Guild is $20.00 for a decent-length module and most 3pp are WotC sized and WotC priced.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

If they had fun in the moments of the char-gen process

Most people don't enjoy creating characters repeatedly in any WotC edition nor even 2E, in my experience.

A setback is a setback. The difference is that an in-character setback stays in character and can be dealt with there, while losing a character outright is a setback at the table level.

There's a huge difference, as you know, and just pretending you don't see it isn't an argument, isn't rational, and isn't even a point. It's merely being obtuse.

Someone giving up or getting excessively upset by setbacks, where setbacks are a known part of the game, can't IMO look anywhere but the mirror to sort it.

Not an argument against anything I said, you're just supporting my point by ignoring what I've actually said.

Yes, in that case I do need to change something up: the players at the table.

This is impressive, you're basically conceding every single point I've made and instead just harrumphing.

I can handle a game-wrecker far more easily than a tantrum-thrower (I've had one or two of these).

Again you effectively support my point. I haven't mentioned "tantrum throwers". People are upset when their characters die almost never throw tantrums. I've never actually seen it happen with someone who wasn't a literal child. I would go as far as to suggest they basically don't exist. But being upset and demoralized and not particularly wanting to continue is very different to throwing a tantrum.

In case this is difficult for you to understand, allow me to illustrate. If you go and see a movie, and that movie is long, dull and bad, or just has a massive downer ending and is not at all "bad in a fun way", and people come out demoralized and don't want to go for a drink after or whatever, just want to go home, that's what I'm talking about when people don't their characters dying.

That's different from if you went to a terrible movie, and your friend starting throwing pop-corn at the screen, bellowing insults at the actors, and basically has to be asked to leave - that's throwing a tantrum.

If you throw a tantrum, you're probably either screaming and shouting, lying on the floor kicking your legs in the air, throwing dice at people (I've seen it happen), or just generally making a gigantic fuss. My entire main groups hates their PCs dying in games which aren't about PCs dying (i.e. CoC etc.), and literally none of them has thrown a tantrum when their PC dies. They just really don't like - that's very different. So if your problem is only tantrums, and you don't play with kids, you're not actually going to have a problem, so your keen-ness to fire anyone who isn't keen on dying is strange.

Also, this makes no sense, why can you handle the former more easily? Sure the result the same, they're kicked out? But you're suggesting kicking out anyone who isn't basically into a form of masochism.

I notice you conceded pretty much all my points re: the common bad behaviours of people who don't care about their characters dying, only arguing metagaming, and I personally find that to be dubious, because that's been the case in 100% of the people I've seen who didn't mind their PCs dying at all - they were inveterate metagamers, the sort of people who immediately tell you the weaknesses and so on of a monster before it's even been fully described. They're basically acting like D&D is a videogame so your rogue-like comparison was apt.

@overgeeked also basically said I was right on my critiques of players who don't mind characters dying, right down to admitting he dislikes people who RP significantly (that's certainly what it sounds like).

One of the main things I dislike about all three WotC editions is the over-complexity of char-gen.

Sure, but if you force churn on people in them, you're thus going to get a bad result. They're game designed for a different and less grindy mode of play.

I've heard this, and yet have also heard many say that low-level 5e is (or can be) a meat grinder.

I said RAW/RAI. RAW/RAI, it's not a meat-grinder. If you follow the encounter guidelines, 5E is pretty low-fatality at low levels. Not as low as 4E, but lower than 3E. If you completely ignore the encounter guidelines, all bets are off, but that's forcing a meat-grinder into the game, it's not one that was already there.

And I’m good with phones at the table. As someone with ADHD, my options are dive into my phone, while keeping an ear out for what’s happening at the table, or disrupting the table. Me diving into my phone is a courtesy to the rest of the group.

I have severe ADHD and I personally couldn't disagree more. Phones make ADHD much worse, not better. Personally, RPGs allow me to ADHD hyperfocus, which is both pleasant and helpful (especially as a DM).

 

[amethal]

Goodman Games does publish physical adventures for 5E still.

Their 5E range includes...
The Prism of Redemption - $17.99 (64 pages, B&W)
Seven Days of the Serpent God - $10.99 (32 pages, B&W).

But they're one of the very, very few still operating in physical releases of this size. (If anyone can list a few other examples, I'd appreciate it).

Cheers,
Merric

Raging Swan has converted a few of their adventures to 5e, available as Print on Demand at Drivethru. This one is a pretty good short adventure for 1st level characters (at least, I like the Pathfinder 1e version) for £7.25. 38 pages, but about half of that is the description of the nearby town which has nothing to do with the actual adventure.

DriveThruRPG

 

[MerricB]

Raging Swan has converted a few of their adventures to 5e, available as Print on Demand at Drivethru. This one is a pretty good short adventure for 1st level characters (at least, I like the Pathfinder 1e version) for £7.25. 38 pages, but about half of that is the description of the nearby town which has nothing to do with the actual adventure.

DriveThruRPG

Print on Demand isn't quite the same. Having physical copies existing at stores is a big difference when it comes to reach.

There are lot of POD short adventures titles out there.

Cheers,
Merric

 

[overgeeked]

@overgeeked also basically said I was right on my critiques of players who don't mind characters dying, right down to admitting he dislikes people who RP significantly (that's certainly what it sounds like).

No. That's your interpretation of what I said. RPing is fine. Going full thespian is not roleplaying, it's play acting. Different things.

I have severe ADHD and I personally couldn't disagree more. Phones make ADHD much worse, not better. Personally, RPGs allow me to ADHD hyperfocus, which is both pleasant and helpful (especially as a DM).

As a player, either I'm on my phone or I'm disrupting the table when it's not my turn. As a referee, I don't have time to check my phone. Unless it's looking up something in my notes or online real quick.