Matt Colville's Community

[aramis erak]

Neurodivergency is also much tougher to recognize or differentiate in a written forum than in a face to face or even over the phone conversation. Even if that isn’t a factor - people tend to be less confrontational in person, or these game differences are less of an issue.

IME, people are less willing to pursue disagreement based discussion FTF, often out of fear of violence/harm, be that social, verbal or physical.

Social violence includes bullying those associated with the target, blocking the target's participation, public ridicule. It's used on most BBSs as the final resort to unsociable behavior, as well.

Mental violence is direct attacks on the person, which can include and overlap with social violence.

Physical violence is often the most visible... but also the least used. And seldom available online. That discussions online get heated, only rarely does that result in physical harm...

but most people seemingly don't think of non-physical harm as being actual harm. So, online, the mitigations of physical risk don't arise to curb the social and/or mental harm.

Building communities is hard; maintaining them is harder.

 

[Umbran]

IME, people are less willing to pursue disagreement based discussion FTF, often out of fear of violence/harm, be that social, verbal or physical.

People are less willing to pursue disagreement face to face, first and foremost, because we get subtextual cues (vocal tone, body language, facial expression, and so on) that moderate our behavior - our sense of empathy is a strong moderator of our own behavior, but it doesn't work particularly well in text form.

but most people seemingly don't think of non-physical harm as being actual harm. So, online, the mitigations of physical risk don't arise to curb the social and/or mental harm.

As someone who moderates those non-physical forms of attack - for the most part, they do think of it as harm. Folks know their verbal abuse is wrong. They just don't admit it. Their behavior when confronted generally isn't that of someone who honestly doesn't realize it hurts, but of someone trying to dodge responsibility for hurting another.

Edit to add: and the interplay between that first paragraph, and the second, is interesting. We know it is harmful both face-to-face and in text. But, face to face, we are more likely to stop ourselves than in text. And that's understandable when we think that the internal controls we have on our behavior were established tens of thousands of years before we had writing, much less keyboards and social media.

 

[Scribe]

but most people seemingly don't think of non-physical harm as being actual harm.

Years and years ago at this point I read a comment.

"Got a problem with that, log off or block."

 

[aramis erak]

Years and years ago at this point I read a comment.

"Got a problem with that, log off or block."

I banned someone from the Traveller boards a couple years back for making that comment after violating half the board rules in their first week. Actually, a couple folk for similar.

It's not been acceptable on most of the boards I've been on since the 80's (yes, BBS days, pre-public internet, on WWIV, Fido, and Opus network BBSs, plus Compuserve). And board bans got a lot more effective when caller ID was added...

@Umbran My experience is very different from yours. Then again, it's a different tone over at COTI, especially since Mongoose licensed Traveller, and changing again now that Mongoose owns all of traveller... most of the problem posters there are really quite clueless about tone, and I had the time to work with them. There are a bunch who do know, but a good number don't process it until called upon it. I'd say half or so. Then again, I had the time to deal with it.

Social exclusion is the biggest tool of moderation; public shaming is also common; I've tried to avoid the latter as a mod at COTI; it's the default mode of the software EnWorld is running, and that COTI is now also using. I prefer the less visbile mode of VBulletin.

As for face to face, I know enough people (myself included) who can't "read the room," or can only vaguely do so, when FTF, that it's actual fear in social repercussions for them (and myself), not empathy, that drives many of the social interaction decisions.

 

[HaroldTheHobbit]

The number of videos on youtube that have a somewhat interesting topic which I've just ignored is too damn high!

So many times I think it would be easier to skim an article to see if it's interesting rather than having to watch a 15-20 minute video about it. I especially hate the "5 things that help improve your game" videos.

And this is a plague no matter what subject. Politics, fly fishing - the yapping heads are there, filling endless minutes with (if we’re lucky) 98% redundancy. It’s horrible.

Edit: I almost wrote hell on earth, but there’s no gamma priests or evil robots around to lighten the mood.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And this is a plague no matter what subject. Politics, fly fishing - the yapping heads are there, filling endless minutes with (if we’re lucky) 98% redundancy. It’s horrible.

Edit: I almost wrote hell on earth, but there’s no gamma priests or evil robots around to lighten the mood.

Man, that was a cool game!

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

And this is a plague no matter what subject. Politics, fly fishing - the yapping heads are there, filling endless minutes with (if we’re lucky) 98% redundancy. It’s horrible.

Edit: I almost wrote hell on earth, but there’s no gamma priests or evil robots around to lighten the mood.

Yeah, YouTube's monetization has clearly won out over Medium's monetization. For hot takes, the money's in video, so that's where they mostly go. (Or to people's Substacks, which they then have to beg you to subscribe to read.)

 

[Umbran]

@Umbran My experience is very different from yours.

I can allow that different places can have different users, sure.

...and I had the time to work with them. There are a bunch who do know, but a good number don't process it until called upon it. I'd say half or so. Then again, I had the time to deal with it.

You repeat that, as if in contrast to the assumption that we don't work with folks who we moderate.

You'd be very wrong in that assumption.

Social exclusion is the biggest tool of moderation; public shaming is also common; I've tried to avoid the latter as a mod at COTI; it's the default mode of the software EnWorld is running

To be perfectly clear - we are not engaged in public shaming.

We have found that if we don't post about moderating someone, the users at large assume we have done nothing, and either get angry at us, or dog pile the offenders, or both.

The point is not to shame, but to make everyone aware that we see an issue, and some idea of what the issue is, so they can correct if they choose, and be aware of the likely results should they choose not to.

...and that COTI is now also using. I prefer the less visbile mode of VBulletin.

It was while we were on vBulletin that we learned we had to make our actions fairly visible, or arguments got worse.

As for face to face, I know enough people (myself included) who can't "read the room," or can only vaguely do so

That must be difficult.

But, we are message board moderators, not therapists. If someone has such issues, they need assistance we are not really qualified to render, though we try our best to help if someone talks with us about it.

Overall, though, I feel that my note that I was speaking broadly is important to remember here.

 

[definiteFreakyFishGuy]

Tangentially related to the conversation, but I would like to point out that putting someone on ignore doesn't mean that the other person is a bad person. Obviously they can be. However, believe it or not, it's possible for otherwise morally good and decent people to have conflicts of personality and frequent breakdowns in communication. Personalities can clash between good people.

Exactly. For me, it's less about them and more about keeping me from spiraling into pointless arguments.

And me putting someone on ignore doesn't mean I never see their posts. I often browse these forums while not logged in, and I will occasionally click on "Show ignored content" (only to be reminded of why I put them on the ignore list in the first place).