Maximum skill results?

[silentspace]

Yep. Hitler and Stalin also had very high diplomacy skills. Can someone post the link to the diplomacy thread someone mentioned? I'd love to read through it.

 

[Kalanyr]

Purely as a metagame limit there either a) has to be a limit on Diplomacy or b) it should by some means escalate in DC with the level of the person being diplomatized (I'm pretty sure that isn't even a word) because otherwise Diplomacy becomes the skill Win Encounter and no one else at the table gets to do anything or have any fun because Diplomacy Master rules all.

 

[Squire James]

IMC there's "Hostile", "Hostile -20", "Hostile -50", and "Hostile -100". Hey, if the ELH can invent ranks above "Helpful", surely I can invent ranks below "Hostile"?

Talking a lich out of phylactery? Possible. I'd be sure to apply at least a -20 circumstance modifier for going after one's most prized possession, and note that even wizard liches probably cross-classed a lot of ranks of Sense Motive because their Int is so high they have little else to do with the skill points...

Using Balance to walk on clouds? Impossible. It's like trying to use Diplomacy on a non-sentient creature.

Hide in brightly-lit featureless room? Impossible with only the Hide skill, but possible if you use some means to break line of sight for a moment. Using Bluff comes to mind. Big circumstance penalty for the Hide though, -30 to -40 at least.

Sneaking past alert guards in plate armor? Well, those guards are only as alert as their Spot skill rolls, and Armor Check Penalties exist for a reason. It's not only possible, but it's a fairly standard example of D&D rules in action.

Bluff someone into thinking the sky is green? Impossible to convince someone on a permanent basis (unless the target doesn't grok concepts like "color"), but a skilled Bluffer can certainly induce a victim to glance at the sky to make sure the sky hasn't turned green (that one's no worse than the "celestial lammasu" bluff). Trying it on an alert guard in a brightly-lit featureless room (undoubtedly to get to a lich so he can bilk him out of his phylactery!) probably isn't a good idea, but the PC can try it if he wants to...

 

[Kahuna Burger]

About diplomacy and bluff checks...

There has been, in our recent history (past 50 years), in REAL LIFE, guys who convinced groups of people (americans in some cases), to commit mass suicide.

So there is NOTHING that, in D&D, cannot be achieved by diplomacy. Convince someone to give you his most prized magic item ? If in real life you can convince someone to die, I don't see how impossible it his to convince someone to do ANYTHING. Sure, the DC will vary, but that's it.

Some of you will say "but the people who where convinced to commit such an act might have been mentally ill to begin with".

So ? Is it so hard to stretch the notion of very good diplomacy and bluff skills to make someone give you his stuff, especially in a magical universe ?

Actually, the first thing I would say in response to that is "those cases involved many, many interactions, over a fair period of time." You could say "so" to that too, I suppose. Then I would point out that there was a huge amount of "aid another" going on, in that such cases almost always involve isolation of the "target" from anyone not supporting and backing up the leader. And you might say "so". Then we'd go into the fact that even when not mentally ill, the targets are selected, either directly, or by a self selection process of seeking out the leader.

When powerful individuals from outside the cult were coming to Jonestown, Jim Jones did not meet them at the gates and make a single "check" to get them to commit suicide, or even to join him, or to go away, or to change their attitude at all. Why? because it would have been IMPOSSIBLE for him to use diplomacy to significantly change the course of the encounter. Instead, he used both bluff and diplomacy on people who had already been moved (through long, intensive, high circumstance and aid another modifier situations) to a supra helpful condition, to get them to do something.

Congratulations, your example makes my case for me... There is no check (single roll) high enough to do these things, evidenced by the fact that none of the real world examples you can come up with were ever used in a single encounter against someone activly hostile at the outset. The fact that even people of moderate charisma can use long term intensive tactics to do similar things is irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

If you want to apply circumstance modifiers to cult tactics, they could definitly add up, but they still take time and in most cases a well selected target...

Kahuna burger

 

[Gnarlo]

I like a better than human fantasy world to play in; I want my players to be able to swim up waterfalls and walk on clouds like the heroes in the epic myths could, once they reach suitable level of course

I figure the skills balance out the other impossible things in the game, like the belief that it is possible for a few folks with swords and arrows and a few spells to take out a thousands of years old, flame breathing, spell using, flying reptile a couple of times the size of a sauropod. Guess it's like the old Far Side cartoon where a mammoth lies on its side with a single arrow in its belly, and one cave man says to another: "Let's write that spot down"

 

[CRGreathouse]

BTW, speaking of Arcana Unearthed, an optimally built AU character can have a +22 Diplomacy skill at 2nd level. that's enough to change some one from a hostile to helpful reaction on a die roll of 18!

Bah. I can get Diplomacy +26 on second level without AU or OA:

Brd1/Clr1
5 ranks
+6 synergy
+4 Cha
+4 sacred (Herald or Joy domain)
+2 competence (Community domain)
+2 Nymph's Kiss (or Negotiator, if Int is high enough)
+3 Skill Focus

 

[Trainz]

Congratulations, your example makes my case for me... There is no check (single roll) high enough to do these things, evidenced by the fact that none of the real world examples you can come up with were ever used in a single encounter against someone activly hostile at the outset.

But... Kahuna... ?



I am aware of your points, and I agree completely. In real life.

That said, in a universe where gods walk the earth, where humans can conjure storms from the sky, where you can take an ale with a creature that looks like a lizard, where... you get the point. Given all this, is it SUCH a stretch of the imagination to allow a PC, with a HIGH enough skill check (so high that NO human being on earth IRL could do it, but a HERO in an heroic-fantasy setting could), to accomplish something in a few minutes that, IN REAL LIFE, takes days, and the assistance of others ?

I mean, you accept that in D&D, someone is so good with sword weilding that he can kill in about 6 seconds, with no magical assistance, 4 attacking lions, or a single charging elephant (epic character with no magic items), but you have a problem with just stretching a bit, in light of what I said, the diplomacy skill ?

Come on man...

 

[Kahuna Burger]

But... Kahuna... ?



I am aware of your points, and I agree completely. In real life.

well, I was responding to the claim that people were in real life "diplomatic" enough to make people kill themselves. In a single roll, they aren't. Frankly, I consider that sort of thing to be the realm of magic, and there's nothing wrong with magic, but my preference is for skills to play a seperate and distinct role. So I do enforce real world limits on skill use, obviously not on magic, and some leeway on combat (which is usually so buffed out by magic items by a certain point its a sketchy area.)

if everything in the D&D world is magic there's no reason not to go hog wild on skills and thats a campaign decision. But if you do not consider skills to be magical, there are limits. Just my take.

Kahuna burger

PS, I'm not a man...

 

[Mort]

This is Fantasy not reality. In Fantasy "impossible" should simply mean really difficult. If you can suspend disbelief for fireballs why not incredible acts of skill. Remember in many worlds belief shapes reality so even walking on clouds is merely difficult.

As for real world acts of persuasion – I think people are underestimating the things people will believe and can be convinced to do under the right circumstances – even after only a few minutes.
Take a look at this link describing the Milgram shock experiments if you think people cannot be convinced to do things against their “better” nature (WARNING: while the page contains nothing objectionable the results of the study are a bit disturbing). Add in an incredibly charismatic sort and the sky’s the limit (sorry couldn’t resist).

 

[Kahuna Burger]

This is Fantasy not reality. In Fantasy "impossible" should simply mean really difficult. If you can suspend disbelief for fireballs why not incredible acts of skill. Remember in many worlds belief shapes reality so even walking on clouds is merely difficult.

I think the fact that some people are perfectly happy to seperate magic and skills has been done to death, so can people stop proposing this particual red herring? if you want high level skills to be magic, good on you, but its not a compelling argument.

As for real world acts of persuasion – I think people are underestimating the things people will believe and can be convinced to do under the right circumstances – even after only a few minutes.
Take a look at this link describing the Milgram shock experiments if you think people cannot be convinced to do things against their “better” nature (WARNING: while the page contains nothing objectionable the results of the study are a bit disturbing). Add in an incredibly charismatic sort and the sky’s the limit (sorry couldn’t resist).

Pheh, Milgram is overrated, and quite possibly out of date. It also measured reactions to authority, not persuasion. The people were hired to do a job, and the job escalated. Bluff, diplomacy, persuasion were all irrelevant... And I didn't follow the link since I read the orriginal study. Of course, again, it was never a single 0 to 60 leap of convincing... The Milgram study started with very light "shocks", and worked people up to doing terrible things over a series of distinct decisions. Each decision they made caused the next to be harder to change their minds on. No single roll.

Kahuna burger