Maxwell's Silver Hammer: On Spells, Design, and the feeling of Sameyness in 5e

[TwoSix]

There's a point at which reallocating the existing spell lists feels a little bit like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. That's not to say it isn't a worthwhile endeavor, but I think there will still be some holes in the lists no matter how things get moved about. which just means new spells I guess, so yay?

To my mind, making sure the spell lists have holes is part of the point. It's all part of adding niche protection, which was the original theme of this thread.

 

[Fenris-77]

To my mind, making sure the spell lists have holes is part of the point. It's all part of adding niche protection, which was the original theme of this thread.

I don't disagree with you at all, I just think the lists and class powers would need adding to, not just rearranging to really accomplish the task at hand. Rearranging is a fine start though. I wasn't peeing in anyone's cornflakes.

 

[Shiroiken]

I personally feel that this is the result of too many legacy classes, most of which are casters. I'm not a fan of the Warlock, but it does add something new to the game. Sorcerer has lost almost all of its purpose due to the removal of vancian spellcasting. Pushing Paladin and Ranger to half-casters made them far more magical than before. Adding attack cantrips in an edition where everyone has the same proficiency made weapons for casters fairly meaningless.

That said, this isn't MY edition... it's everyone's. The decisions made were best for the majority of gamers, not the elite enthusiasts we are. Fortunately, a lot of it can be houseruled to fit your needs.

 

[Fenris-77]

From an edition-wide perspective I think that more abilities and less 'spells' would also be a big help differentiating the casters. Bards and Druids are pretty well primed for that approach IMO, and I think that some better differentiated mechanics for Clerics would be cool too. Wizards and Sorcerers are a separate mess.

 

[houser2112]

Sorcerer has lost almost all of its purpose due to the removal of vancian spellcasting.

I agree, but I'm willing to sacrifice the sorcerer on the altar if that's what needed to get rid of paleovancian casting for good.

Adding attack cantrips in an edition where everyone has the same proficiency made weapons for casters fairly meaningless.

I agree with this too. While I don't like the decision to get rid of the concept of touch AC, I do like that casters have something useful to do that doesn't require expending precious slots, and it's more thematic than a stupid crossbow (a peasant militia weapon).

 

[tetrasodium]

There's a point at which reallocating the existing spell lists feels a little bit like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. That's not to say it isn't a worthwhile endeavor, but I think there will still be some holes in the lists no matter how things get moved about. which just means new spells I guess, so yay?

That's why I suggested(links in post) padding out the lists with stuff from swordmeow & grimlore's grimoir rather than just rearranging the deckchairs. There's too many legacy spells & reworking the entire lists getting rid of a lot of the "this spell should be N levels higher but history so meh" stuff with level appropriate interesting spells

 

[Nebulous]

I absolutely hate it when the wizard says, "Ok, I hit it with firebolt until it is dead/burned/destroyed. Oh, that will take three hours? Ok, I do that."

 

[tetrasodium]

I absolutely hate it when the wizard says, "Ok, I hit it with firebolt until it is dead/burned/destroyed. Oh, that will take three hours? Ok, I do that."

Just because the cantrips in 5e are boring AF weapon replacements doesn't mean that they should be, but since you mention it...

Just to give a couple examples from swordmeow grimlore's grimoire has a bunch more but imo they are kind of necromancery flavored

 

[DND_Reborn]

@TwoSix :

PALADIN:

Purify Food and Drink
Ok, Cleric it is for both of us then. I'll update my spreadsheet for your information so they match.

Locate Object
So this will be listed as Cleric for us both then.

Create Food and Water
Also moved to Cleric on your list now.

Dispel Magic
Your comment on a Cleric being a caster-beater was the reason I kept Silence in with Cleric, it doesn't stop magic, but thwarts Wizards from casting many spells.

Locate Creature
We will have to continue the discussion on this. With Locate Object under Cleric, Locate Creature under Druid, it is too bad there isn't a third "Locate" spell we could put into Wizard. I'll add this to the "Further Discussion List".

RANGER:

Darkvision
I like your reasoning for giving Cleric the physical enhancement spells (also why I gave them Enhance Ability), so I'll move my Darkvision to Cleric.

Find Traps
Historical precedence is a good reason IMO, but I am thinking in terms of the classes and not giving Rangers access to this spell is probably ok since the Ranger will likely have good Perception/Investigation as were Clerics and Paladins might not--so relying on magic for them makes sense. I'll move to Cleric.

Silence
We can discuss it further, but I still like Cleric for this for a couple reasons. 1) Historic precedence and 2) Wizards already have the major shutdown and giving at least one of the caster class the potential is a better thing for balance. Added to the further discussion list.

Water Walk
Yeah, the Water -> Druid thing makes perfect sense, but for other reasons I think moving it to Cleric is good for balance among other things. I'll move yours to Cleric.

Freedom of Movement
You went with Wizard, and I with Druid, but then you responded "Yea, cleric is probably better here." So, are you thinking Cleric or Druid? I'm still going with Druid for now, but definitely open to your point so let me know. Added to further discussion.

Stoneskin
Yep, stone -> Druid, makes sense; but this is a classic Wizard spell for me. You mentioned history could win out, but we can discuss it more.

SORCERER:

Comprehend Languages
True, Wizards are good about the ritual casting thing... I'm fine with this going to Wizards.

Expeditious Retreat
I left this with Wizards because they should have an answer to everything LOL. Also, with Druids having Misty Step (which is normally only S,War,W), it felt balanced leaving this with Wizard. Added to the discuss further list.

False Life
Interesting. I've been spreading out necro spells amoung all three for different reasons. I don't want to remove too many from Cleric (otherwise, evil cleric becomes druid...). Adding to the discuss list.

Ice Knife
Although a elemental-type sorcerer spell, I don't mind this staying with Druid instead of Wizard. It could go either way and I think list balance will affect it. Both classes have sufficient blasting spells anyway. Discuss more later.

Sleep
Sigh... yeah, despite the fey-aspect, this is just too iconic a Wizard spell to leave them. I moved it to Wizard.

Thunderwave
Hmm... I get leaving it with Wizard, but I am inclined to keep it in Cleric. I'll have to think about it more and keep it on the discuss list for now.

FURTHER DISCUSSION:

Locate Object
Locate Creature
Silence
Freedom of Movement
Stoneskin
Expeditious Retreat
False Life
Ice Knife
Thunderwave

 

[Fenris-77]

I'd probably tend more toward wards and protection for the Cleric. 5e is bad enough already at simulating a wizard duel that I don't want to make it any worse. interacting directly with magic - counterspell, dispel, etc seems pretty wizardy to me. You need to make choices though, so I'll save any criticism of any significant sort until the lists are finalized. When it comes to removing effects remove curse seems like a cleric thing to me, while dispel magic seems like a wizard thing.