Maybe different versions just have different goals, and that's okay.

[Hussar]

I'm certainly not saying that my opinion is somehow more valid than yours. I've just been jumped over by Carniverous Bean for apparently trying to sidetrack things, I wonder why he isn't taking you to task for this.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it bad. Or somehow too specific for homebrewers to be able to do their own campaign (which Rounser DID claim CB). I've got a 20 year old Ral Partha miniature from a line they called Reptiliads. Lizard warriors with a militaristic culture. Sounds a lot like Dragonborn to me. I've got Basic/Expert material dating from the 80's which includes the Diaboli - a race of demonic looking beings from another plane trapped in the world and feared by the locals. Sounds an awful lot like Tieflings to me.

These concepts, while not core, were certainly in the genre for decades. Yet, somehow they are so "brand specific" that we are being forced to play The ONE GAME of WOTC.

In the second place, what campaign of the past can I not do in ANY system? I can run, say, Planescape with 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, Palladium Megaversal, White Wolf's Storyteller, Fudge, Saga, d6, GURPS, Rolemaster, etc. That doesn't make them all generic, although some of them are -- it just means that with enough hacking, twisting, and stretching, you can force any ruleset into depicting the story you want.

That's not quite what I said though. I meant, what D&D campaign can I not run in 4e? Not by folding, spindling and mashing, but, pretty much a direct conversion?

The straw man that I am required to do massive amounts of work to run these modules in 4e is not necessary.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

That's not quite what I said though. I meant, what D&D campaign can I not run in 4e? Not by folding, spindling and mashing, but, pretty much a direct conversion?

The straw man that I am required to do massive amounts of work to run these modules in 4e is not necessary.

Planescape. Enjoy your "upgraded alignment" and your "upgraded planes" ;p

 

[Hussar]

Planescape. Enjoy your "upgraded alignment" and your "upgraded planes" ;p

Note, I said campaign, not setting.

That being said, considering that Sigil exists in 4e, I'm thinking you're going to see a 4e Planescape before too long.

To be honest, I've never been a huge PS fan, so I don't know the canon all that well. From what I know though, it's more about factions than alignment is it not? So, how would the new alignment system preclude PS?

My point is, campaigns can be done pretty quickly. Can you honestly say that it would be a difficult, arduous task to rework Keep on the Borderlands to 4e? Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil? Rappan Athuk? Heck, KotB would likely be easier to convert to 4e than 3e considering you would not have to radically change the sizes of the encounters like you would in 3e.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Who says it does fit? WOTC? Their opinion, and yours, is subjective too. Hundreds or millions of people can all be wrong, as well. Design by committee often produces awful results; design by survey might even be worse.

You can't say my opinion is subjective and then imply that yours, or WOTC's, is somehow objective. That's intellectually dishonest, and that's the stunt I see you trying to pull here. Please knock it off.

Of course, sometimes, a single person can be wrong, too.

 

[rounser]

Of course, sometimes, a single person can be wrong, too.

Yes. I was just objecting to the assertion that because there was a lot of money behind it, then of course it had to be right. Which is rubbish.

 

[Hussar]

You're right, of course Rounser. Simply using professional game designers and lots of money doesn't guarantee a good game. That's true.

However, you assertion that somehow the game has been changed so far that you can no longer easily homebrew or that the new changes are somehow less part of fantasy than the old ones, is ridiculous. There are easily as many sources for Eladrin as halflings in the genre for example.

In other words, if a 30 foot line of sight teleport every 5 minutes breaks your campaign world, then, well, I don't know what can help you.

 

[grickherder]

Especially given how easy it is for the DM to say "Eladrin can't teleport, but you can choose either Elven Accuracy or Dilettante instead."

 

[Lanefan]

A party made of an Eladrin Warlock, Dragonborn Warlord, Dwarf Paladin, Tiefling Cleric and Human Ranger go into the Slavelord Stockade, kill everything they meet and carry on. It's absolutely, 100% no different than it was twenty or thirty years ago.

Which is true...and yet, not true at the same time.

A party composed of a Gnome Illusionist, a Part-Orc Assassin, a Dwarf Fighter, a Half-Elf Cleric and a Human Ranger, along with a low-level Human Thief who is the Assassin's henchling (to illustrate a bunch of 1e archetypes)...that party is going to take a different approach to Slavers' Stockade than the group you list above. And the defenders are going to do things differently, too. Why? Because in both cases they can; the system is different, and allows/disallows different things than it did when A2 was written.

Sure, in hindsight both groups might accomplish exactly the same thing...kill everything they meet in the Stockade and carry on...but the actual on-the-scene gameplay while doing so will be very, very different.

I'll find out *how* different in the fall, when I'll be ret-conning Keep On the Shadowfell to 1e and running my group through it...assuming of course they survive so long; thus far, when the enemy's not killing them, they've been killing each other!

Lanefan

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I would say that each version doesn't necessarily have different goals but that each are made for different people. In that for one person, say 2e is their perfect D&D for another 4e is. They may run almost identical campaigns and it is simply that each prefer different mechanics.

 

[rounser]

However, you assertion that somehow the game has been changed so far that you can no longer easily homebrew or that the new changes are somehow less part of fantasy than the old ones, is ridiculous. There are easily as many sources for Eladrin as halflings in the genre for example.

In other words, if a 30 foot line of sight teleport every 5 minutes breaks your campaign world, then, well, I don't know what can help you.

It's not that I can't. It's that I simply have no desire to fix this game. It's a catch 22 - stuff up the core flavour that much, and I have no motivation to do repairs on it. If it were in some sourcebook I'd be happier to customise, but the lame is in the core books now, annoying me every time I refer to them.

Well, stuff that.