Maybe different versions just have different goals, and that's okay.

[Raven Crowking]

I'd argue that fun is a whole lot less nebulous than "heart". I know precisely, to the second when I'm having fun, and, more importantly, when I stop having fun.

And I would say that your failure to understand what is meant by "heart" or "soul" is simply that...a failure to understand. It is exactly analagous to my saying that, because I didn't "get" why you weren't having "fun" that your concept of "fun" should be "tuned out". This isn't high art, after all.

(It's all too easy to take ideas you don't like and declare them meaningless, or to declare that any term that leads to a conclusion you don't like is too vague to be used. But doing so greatly limits the number of ideas you can consider. Ultimately, it is more damaging to you than to those whose "nebulous" ideas you ignore.)

RC

 

[Mallus]

4E is the crappy summer blockbuster, effects driven, popcorn movie of the D&D franchise with no heart or soul.

Heart and soul are what my friends and I imbued D&D with. We never found it in the pages of a rule book.

As an aside, I loved Spiderman 3. Though it was ridiculously full of melodrama and comic-book romanticism. Overstuffed with heart and soul, so to speak. That reminds me, I should move the Blu-ray version of it up in my Netflix queue...

 

[Hussar]

And I would say that your failure to understand what is meant by "heart" or "soul" is simply that...a failure to understand. It is exactly analagous to my saying that, because I didn't "get" why you weren't having "fun" that your concept of "fun" should be "tuned out". This isn't high art, after all.

(It's all too easy to take ideas you don't like and declare them meaningless, or to declare that any term that leads to a conclusion you don't like is too vague to be used. But doing so greatly limits the number of ideas you can consider. Ultimately, it is more damaging to you than to those whose "nebulous" ideas you ignore.)

RC

RC, I'm not going to get into this pedantic pissing contest with you yet again. While I realize you strongly believe that every word out there is equally valuable as a descriptor, I do not. I could not care less if what you find fun is what I find fun. I'M NOT THE ONE CLAIMING IT.

The claim by Renard is that somehow 4e no longer has heart or soul. Whatever the hell that means. You can keep trying to turn this into mindless semantics all you like and that's fine. But, leave me out of it please. I find claims about heart and soul to be pretty much the same as saying, "I don't like this, therefore it's bad".

Why people cannot simply say, "I don't like this. It is not to my taste" and leave it at that is far and beyond my comprehension. You don't have to justify your tastes. You really, really don't. Not liking something is your fundamental right. Doesn't matter why. You can dislike whatever you wish to whatever degree you wish.

But, when you start with these airy fairy claims of "heart and soul" I'm going to tune you out. Yes, you don't like it. I understand that. Why is there this compelling need to go beyond?

 

[Reynard]

But, when you start with these airy fairy claims of "heart and soul" I'm going to tune you out. Yes, you don't like it. I understand that. Why is there this compelling need to go beyond?

So, you have never been moved by entertainment? never had emotions or feelings stirred within you, beyond simple "fun"? Never found fiction or music or film thought provoking or creatively inspiring?

My condolences.

 

[Raven Crowking]

So, you have never been moved by entertainment? never had emotions or feelings stirred within you, beyond simple "fun"? Never found fiction or music or film thought provoking or creatively inspiring?

My condolences.

And mine.

 

[Mallus]

So, you have never been moved by entertainment

I was moved by the end of Spiderman 3 when Harry can back to help Peter beat the Sandman.

Also more recently by Julie Taymor's lovely Beatles-inspired musical, Across the Universe. It was... well... there's no way around it... magical.

(BTW,the problem inherent in using loaded language like "heart and soul" is that you often sound like your trying to lay claim to the essence of thing your talking about, even when you don't mean to.)

 

[MichaelSomething]

It took me a while but I finally discovered what it is bout 4e that I don't like. It's difficult to express directly, so I'll use an analogy:

4E is like Spiderman 3. It's like the people the created them (by and large the same people that had been involved in the previous iterations) decided to focus all of their creative talents on a singular aspect, the one they thought made the earlier versions successful. And in so doing, they managed to remove all the things that *I personally* found worthwhile and valuable in those previous versions.

And they still made a bajillion dollars, but that don't make it right.

4E is the crappy summer blockbuster, effects driven, popcorn movie of the D&D franchise with no heart or soul.

To the people who make movies, Spiderman 3 is a huge success since it made a bajillion dollars. Given the choice between a heartless movie that makes a billion or a heartful movie that makes 200 million, the heartless movie wins out every time.

The movie makers need (or at least want) movies to generate money since making movies cost money. Heart and soul don't mean kobold droppings when your homeless and hungry. I'm not saying it's not important however.

There's a whole whole of movies out there! I'm sure there's plenty of movies out there brusting with heart and soul! Some stars use their start power to put stuff out that would not normally see the light of day.

Don't act like Spiderman 3 is the only movie out there. Too bad to many people, Spiderman 3 is the only movie out there...

 

[Mallus]

Given the choice between a heartless movie that makes a billion or a heartful movie that makes 200 million, the heartless movie wins out every time.

Spiderman 3 has heart! It wears it on it's red and blue Spandex sleeve, for g-d's sake.

There's a whole whole of movies out there! I'm sure there's plenty of movies out there bursting with heart and soul!

Like Julie Taymor's criminally under-appreciated Across the Universe! Also, her version of Titus Andronicus is pretty damn good. I like Julie Taymor.

Too bad to many people, Spiderman 3 is the only movie out there...

I bet very few people's cinematic intake consists solely of Spiderman 3.

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

Spiderman 1: The classic edition. Sure, it had some clunky elements (the green goblin's outfit and the final fight scene), but we forgive it for its few short comings.

Spiderman 2: The second edition spidey fixed many flaws, the villain was in normal clothes, the final fight scene was excellent. Clearly it was the heart and soul of the spiderman movies.

Spiderman 3: Clearly designed to just make money and sell action figures (3 villains and 2 different spiderman outfits!!!!)

 

[Mallus]

(3 villains and 2 different spiderman outfits!!!!)

All this proves is that Spiderman 3 is, in fact, based on the comic book!