Maybe this is where the magic went...(Forked Thread: Where Has All the Magic Gone?)

[avin]

Hey, a topic started based on something I've said. How much XP is it wort?

 

[Scribble]

This sounds like the classic Superman vs. Batman debate. I'm a Batman fan myself, and while in a head up fight there really is no competition...I also believe, given the right equipment and his own creativity Batman will beat Superman. Even though by all measurements, Superman is inherently superior to Batman.

I think he did once actually... In a fight over wonderwoman...

Lasso of truth... Man you got some big

As for Magic shops...

I've never been a fan of the idea of walk in and buy whatever you need magic shops. Just seems to unspecial. Buying magic items easily seems to make them viewed as fundamentaly no different then say a horse, or a normal weapon.

That said, I DO have magic shops, and people with magic items to sell in ym campaigns. Just not everything is available, and not all at once. I think saying that magic items are never available for sale is kind of strange and counter to human nature. If something is useful and makes life easier, then people will want it. If people want it, someone else will be looking to profit off of that want. So someone will sell it.

The blacksmith might have magic swords and armor, there might be an old crone with potions, or magic tatoos... etc. Some stuff needs to be comissioned.

I think if you're looking to make magic items really "special" in your campaign you have to do one or both of the following:

Get rid of all the common magic items, and only go with artifacts.

Give magic items some sort of drawback to their use. IE using them causes a loss of healing surges, or harms you in some other way.

 

[Cadfan]

And would a hobbit without Sting even injure Shelob?

Don't really think so.

Aragorn wielding an ordinary sword is still a skilled swordsman, and that makes him dangerous.

Take away his sword, and Frodo wielding Anduril becomes a threat. Unless you're in a 4Ed regime, that is.

Eh... I half agree with you.

The problem is that in books, and typically in comic books as well, magic items are intrinsic to the holder. You don't end up with Hero Joe who goes through six swords in his career, you get Hero Joe, Wielder of the AweSword, which he acquires during an early plot arc, and keeps for the entirety of his career, except for side plots where he loses the sword for some reason and then regains it.

So what I'm saying, really, is that the D&D paradigm for magic weapons is really, really different from that of books. As long as magical items are fundamentally disposable goods that you go through repeatedly over the course of your career, it makes sense to divorce certain abilities from them, and make those abilities intrinsic to the character.

Basically any ability that you would associate with the person HAS to be part of the person's abilities, because the weapon is transient. Its the opposite of comic books, where its perfectly acceptable for a trademark attribute to be possessed by someone's trademark weapon.

 

[Scribble]

Take away his sword, and Frodo wielding Anduril becomes a threat. Unless you're in a 4Ed regime, that is.

Aragorn did pretty well (at least in the movie) with a torch against several ring wraiths.

 

[AllisterH]

I like my characters to be "10-levels" strong without their gear.

What I mean is that a 20th level melee guy with 1st level gear should stomp into the ground either his 10th level version with gear and/or the same threats he faced down when he was 10th level.

It works for spellcasters in that a 20th level spellcaster in D&D even with regular 1st level gear can still easily hold his own against 10th level challenges.

The same thing should apply to martial types as they should be heroes without their gear.

A 20th level without gear facing down a 15th level version with gear should be at around a 50/50 situation IMO....

 

[Raven Crowking]

Eh... I half agree with you.

In LotR, when Frodo & Company meet Aragorn, he is unarmed save for a broken sword. The hobbits have the swords they picked up on the Barrow Downs. Yet, Aragorn is certain that, if he wanted the Ring, he could take it from the hobbits easily.

The problem is that in books, and typically in comic books as well, magic items are intrinsic to the holder. You don't end up with Hero Joe who goes through six swords in his career, you get Hero Joe, Wielder of the AweSword, which he acquires during an early plot arc, and keeps for the entirety of his career, except for side plots where he loses the sword for some reason and then regains it.

That's not always true, though. Beowulf uses the giant-made sword in a single battle, and Conan only has the Phoenix-marked blade for a single story, for example. Sting gets passed from Bilbo to Frodo, and is held for a while by Sam. And Frodo first wields a barrow-blade, but trades it in for Sting when Bilbo gives it to him.

If you have an artifact-level sword (e.g., Excaliber, which signifies right to rule) you might keep it your entire career, but don't forget that there are versions of the King Arthur story in which the original Sword in the Stone was not Excaliber, but a different blade altogether.

Tarzan keeps his father's knife (non-magical), and Aragorn keeps Isildur's sword, because they represent kinship and family, at least as much as they grant any specific powers or bonus.



RC

 

[Scribble]

What I find interesting in the game is the dual purpose of a magic item. Not only do they serve as neat storytelling devices, but they also serve to enhance the game aspect. In books and movies we only need the first part.

We know Sting glows when orcs are near. We don't really need to know how much that blue glow adds to his perception check because it doesn't matter. Frodo either sees the glow, or misses that it's glowing based on what the author needs. But in D&D we DO need to know the mechanical benefits, because magic items also help the PLAYER by giving him some sort of bonus to his character.

Also I wonder about adding the idea of "power items" to the game... EI items that only grant a bonus aren't magic, they won't detect as magic, but the grant all the same bonuses. They're basically masterwork items, created by a ritual. (Either a magic ritual or something else.)

Mechanically they'd be the same, but psychologically?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The problem is that in books, and typically in comic books as well, magic items are intrinsic to the holder.

Really, that varies from legend to legend, from story to story. It is, however, unquestionably more common in modern literature, especially comic books.

Also I wonder about adding the idea of "power items" to the game... EI items that only grant a bonus aren't magic, they won't detect as magic, but the grant all the same bonuses. They're basically masterwork items, created by a ritual. (Either a magic ritual or something else.)

Mechanically they'd be the same, but psychologically?

Dude, non-magical items of significance are some of the best kinds of objects out there.

The Signet Ring of the King of Undermountain, handed down from Dwarven king to Dwarven king may just be a simple circle of iron. What it represents, however, may be lordship over an entire peoples.

That huge red gem plucked from the eye of an idol may be entirely non-magical- and the "curse" associated with it is merely that the cult who claims ownership over it may never cease harrying you until they get it back and/or you're dead.

 

[Scribble]

Dude, non-magical items of significance are some of the best kinds of objects out there.

The Signet Ring of the King of Undermountain, handed down from Dwarven king to Dwarven king may just be a simple circle of iron. What it represents, however, may be lordship over an entire peoples.

That huge red gem plucked from the eye of an idol may be entirely non-magical- and the "curse" associated with it is merely that the cult who claims ownership over it may never cease harrying you until they get it back and/or you're dead.

Which is where I'm going with the power items thing... They would be the items that aren't "magical" but still add a game benefit. Save the magic items category for things that add extra effects, but not bonuses.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

They don't have to be mutually exclusive- there is nothing wrong with both mundane and magical items granting "crunchy" mechanical benefits.

After all, while magic items may be incredibly powerful, mundane ones still work when there is no magic at all.