Maybe this is where the magic went...(Forked Thread: Where Has All the Magic Gone?)

[Dausuul]

For the record, I still see items like a bag of holding, a feather boat and portable hole even in the 4E PHB's smaller magic item selection. Adventurer's Vault has plenty more non-combat specific items and even some combat items which might be creatively applied to non-combat situations.

Yup.

It's a funny thing. When I first bought the Adventurer's Vault, it seemed like just an extension of the PHB item list - an endless parade of weapons, armor, implements, and amulets, differing only in the numbers and keywords attached to each. It seemed like a fun little toy for my inner optimizer, but nothing particularly interesting.

Then, as I was creating a cleric and flipping through the AV to choose the exact right suit of chain mail and holy symbol, I stumbled across the Wondrous Items section, and realized that there was a great deal more to the AV than I'd thought. The consumables section also had a lot of good stuff. I hope the next AV builds on this.

 

[Allister]

But I've always rejected the notion that a PC in any previous edition was just a collection of gear, particularly in 3e when so many items were dialed down to moderate bonuses. That stuff just makes the job easier. Without it, you just have to be more judicious about things you do and how you do them.
Casting the issue as being either inherently capable of outstanding things or the gear makes the man is far too binary. PCs, even without magical gear, tend to be capable of pretty outstanding things.

Um, do you REALLY think a 20th level non-spellcaster in 1e/3e can even stand up to his 15th level self with gear? Hell, I don't think he would even be a match for his 10th level self, much less his 15th...

Really, I'm looking at past character sheets and we're talking a WORLD of difference based on how tricked in gear your character was...

 

[billd91]

Um, do you REALLY think a 20th level non-spellcaster in 1e/3e can even stand up to his 15th level self with gear? Hell, I don't think he would even be a match for his 10th level self, much less his 15th...

Really, I'm looking at past character sheets and we're talking a WORLD of difference based on how tricked in gear your character was...

Against his 10th level version? Sure. But remember that I said you have to be judicious about what jobs you take on. Gear can raise the challenge of what you face, but it's not everything. A 15th level character, well equipped, probably could take on his own 20th level version without the primo gear.

But then, I wouldn't expect the guy from New Yankee Woodshop to compete against even a lesser carpenter if he had no tools.

 

[Captain Xenon]

oh, theres a lot of fun things implied by the 3.0/3.5 wonderous item creation thats never quite put directly into words.

pick a craft, and put a skill bonus on your masterwork tools. its only 2000gp (price of a +1 sword) to get a +10 bonus to that craft skill. and if we assume they have a net +10 from skills/feats/attributes(doable at lv 1), then take 10 to get a 30. that +10 means +5 gold/week. takes over a year to pay for itself, but very worth it. also it means crafting things faster (3 longswords a week, or a suit of full plate in 7 months).

now, that +10 on a musican instrument could give a performer enough to hit that DC 30 for 3d6 gold/day every day, averaging 3738 gp/year. even with an 'extravagant' lifestyle of 200gp/month, thats 1738 gp/year. you live well and earn back your investment fairly quickly. worst case of 3gp/day, thats still enough for a 'common' lifestyle and 528gp extra per year. not bad for just taking 10. best case would be a 4000gp/year profit, but if you roll that many 6's in a row i know your dice are loaded.

for fun, a magic book that gives +10 to a knowledge skill can be great. it opens to what you need most the time, which is what you want in magic books.

the best magic items are not in the book- because the book is whats in the 'ancient' treasure troves and of use to heroic adventurers, not what gets made for and used by honest craftsmen and their guilds. and you know the guilds will want to regulate who can get certain magical tools...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But then, I wouldn't expect the guy from New Yankee Woodshop to compete against even a lesser carpenter if he had no tools.

Exactly- sometimes, there simply is no substitute for the use of tools.

Which is why one of my gripes about 4Ed is that too much of the stuff is inherent. These guys aren't ordinary men and women who acquired goods (weapons, armors, spellbooks, etc.) to improve their abilities, they're superheroes with powers.

 

[Dausuul]

Exactly- sometimes, there simply is no substitute for the use of tools.

Which is why one of my gripes about 4Ed is that too much of the stuff is inherent. These guys aren't ordinary men and women who acquired goods (weapons, armors, spellbooks, etc.) to improve their abilities, they're superheroes with powers.

Can't agree with you there. I feel that Aragorn wielding an ordinary sword should still be able to beat Frodo wielding Anduril.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And would a hobbit without Sting even injure Shelob?

Don't really think so.

Aragorn wielding an ordinary sword is still a skilled swordsman, and that makes him dangerous.

Take away his sword, and Frodo wielding Anduril becomes a threat. Unless you're in a 4Ed regime, that is.

 

[billd91]

Can't agree with you there. I feel that Aragorn wielding an ordinary sword should still be able to beat Frodo wielding Anduril.

And he can. I can't think of too many games with reasonable stat-ups for both Aragorn and Frodo that would enable Frodo to clean Aragorn's clock just because he's toting Anduril around while Aragorn has a normal sword. Doing so would pretty much require 1) Frodo to be built too powerfully for his characterization, 2) Aragorn to be built too weakly for his characterization, 3) Anduril's power to be built too strongly based on almost no characterization, or some combination of the three.

But for debate's sake: Aragorn without Anduril vs Aragorn with Anduril, Anduril could be decisive. Boromir with Anduil vs Aragorn with a normal sword - maybe goes to Boromir because of Anduril (for that matter, a straight up fight between the two might end with Boromir winning anyway, we have no strong reason to favor Aragorn over Boromir).

There's a balancing point between things being reasonably inherent and reasonably external. 4e has tracked toward the inherent end of the pole.

 

[Staffan]

There's a balancing point between things being reasonably inherent and reasonably external. 4e has tracked toward the inherent end of the pole.

And that's one of the things I like about it.

"What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?"

 

[Imaro]

This sounds like the classic Superman vs. Batman debate. I'm a Batman fan myself, and while in a head up fight there really is no competition...I also believe, given the right equipment and his own creativity Batman will beat Superman. Even though by all measurements, Superman is inherently superior to Batman.