Meaning of Levels, Throughout the Editions

[jonesy]

BECMI levels:

Basic: 1-3
Expert: 4-14
Companion: 15-25
Master: 26-36

Immortal:
Initiate
Temporal Novice, Temporal 1-4, High Temporal
Celestial Novice, Celestial 1-4, High Celestial
Empyreal Novice, Empyreal 1-4, High Empyreal
Eternal Novice, Eternal 1-4, High Eternal
Hierarch Novice, Hierarch 1-4, Full Hierarch

And finally, if you give up your Full Hierarch status, become a level 1 mortal, go through all the levels again, and finally become a Full Hierarch a second time, you have a chance of joining the Old Ones. Maybe. That would require you to play through 134 levels.

 

[billd91]

So, what does all of this mean? Could you (or should you) draw a comparison between say a 4th level Elf Ranger in 4E versus a 4th level Ranger in 2E or AD&D? Is there a way to calculate or eyeball a comparison of levels between editions?

I really don't you can, certainly not the extent you could in 1e and 2e, and even 3e (and PF). It's one of the reasons I see 4e as being as much an outlier as it is. The points of comparison between editions have been largely wiped out.
4e needs to be dealt with on its own in this respect.

 

[Lanefan]

I've been looking at converting some iconic AD&D modules to 4th edition and one aspect of it got me curious about the "meaning" of levels throughout the various editions of D&D. I've played the vast majority of them, but have not meaningfully played the older versions in any form since about 1992.

...

So, what does all of this mean? Could you (or should you) draw a comparison between say a 4th level Elf Ranger in 4E versus a 4th level Ranger in 2E or AD&D? Is there a way to calculate or eyeball a comparison of levels between editions?

You're converting adventures, which means most of your level conversions are going to be monsters, which are way easier to convert than levelled characters. I've gone the other way - converted 4e adventures for 1e play - and found it pretty easy.

Converting characters or entire parties - say, if a 1e party suddenly jumped to a 4e world because you'd decided to change system on the fly - is a headache looking for a place to roost.

As for levels, one thing to consider when comparing editions is that as time has gone on the power curve between levels (and monsters) has become somewhat steeper. A 4th-level 1e party can still be challenged by a band of ordinary Orcs and at the same time can probably take down a few Giants. A 4th-level 3e party will wipe the floor with a band of ordinary Orcs but won't have a chance in hell against a few Giants.

This is relevant to you because some 1e adventures have quite a spread of monsters in 'em, be careful not to wipe out your party with the tough ones.

Lanefan

 

[S'mon]

As for levels, one thing to consider when comparing editions is that as time has gone on the power curve between levels (and monsters) has become somewhat steeper. A 4th-level 1e party can still be challenged by a band of ordinary Orcs and at the same time can probably take down a few Giants. A 4th-level 3e party will wipe the floor with a band of ordinary Orcs but won't have a chance in hell against a few Giants.

I think that issue is unique to 3e-3.5e actually, due to the (poor) design decision to make +2 levels = x2 power. 4e's +4 levels = x2 Power is closer to 1e.

In 4e you can use basic Orcs (Orc Drudge minion-4) vs 1st level PCs and (with support) vs 4th level PCs. You can also use a 12th level brute hill giant (MM3) against 4th level PCs (alone or with a few weak allies, I used goblins), or a pack of hill giants against 12th level PCs. This is a lot like 1e, where an 8hd hill giant is useable against both 3rd level and 8th level PCs.

 

[S'mon]

I would look at standard monsters (goblin/orc/gnoll/ogre/troll/etc.) and their HD/CR/Level or place on the Wandering Monsters by Dungeon Level charts and go from there.

I'll have a go, just for 1e > 4e, as 3e's CR system is quite different.

Baseline Goblin: 1-1 hd > 1st level minion:
In AD&D, 2 per 1st level PC is a moderate challenge.
In 4e 4 is a moderate challenge to a 1st level PC, ie about the same as a 3rd level 1e PC.
Implies: 1st level 4e = 3rd level 1e.

Baseline Orc: 1 hd > 4th level minion:
In AD&D, 1 per 1st level PC is a moderate challenge.
In 4e, 2 per 1st level PC is a moderate challenge.
Implies: 1st level 4e = 3rd level 1e.

Baseline Gnoll: 2 hd > 5th level artillery
In AD&D, 1 per 2nd level PC is a moderate challenge.
In 4e, 1 per 5th level PC is a moderate challenge.
Implies: 5th level 4e = 2nd level 1e.

Baseline Ogre: 4+1 hd > 8th level brute
In AD&D, 1 per 4th level PC is a moderate challenge.
In 4e, 1 per 8th level PC is a moderate challenge.
Implies: 8th level 4e = 4th level 1e.

Baseline Troll: 6+6 hd > 9th level brute
In AD&D, 1 per 7th level PC is a moderate challenge.
In 4e, 1 per 9th level PC is a moderate challenge.
Implies: 9th level 4e = 7th level 1e.

 

[aurance]

As I understand earlier versions of D&D, character level was always in flux and never openly enumerated to the player. This was important as it enabled other members of a group to "power up" a new 1st level PC, something judged by each upon their ongoing mastering of the game. This was not only for the new guy's benefit, but for everyone in the group. "Give'r the Rod of Smaxalot, that'll help. Plus we can buy her some better armor before we go toe-to-toe." This sharing of resources in a cooperative gave allowed newbies to be useful even at low class levels. And by resources I mean everything quantified and tracked by the referee/DM: equipment, property, contacts, information, even past strategies are all examples.

Huh? No, I've been playing and DMing from every edition since BECMI and I've never heard of character level not being openly enumerated to the player. The rest of your paragraph must also have been a campaign specific thing as well, as generally the rules recommended the PCs start not more than 1 or 2 levels behind. The rebalancing of party power by handing out huge items to low level guys is also something I'm not familiar with.

 

[howandwhy99]

Huh? No, I've been playing and DMing from every edition since BECMI and I've never heard of character level not being openly enumerated to the player. The rest of your paragraph must also have been a campaign specific thing as well, as generally the rules recommended the PCs start not more than 1 or 2 levels behind. The rebalancing of party power by handing out huge items to low level guys is also something I'm not familiar with.

It's difficult to convey without shared terminology. XP total + GP total of all resources may best convey what I'm talking about by character level. It is not class level, CL (& ECL) being a d20 construction, though something similar to my meaning I lifted it to use for pre-d20.

 

[the Jester]

I'm surprised nobody has posted this yet.

An Explanation of the Usages of the Term "Level": The term level has multiple meanings in this game system. Although substitute terminology could have been used in AD&D, common usage of the term level to include multiple meanings is prevalent among existing players, so the term has been retained herein. The usages for level are:

1. Level as an indicator of character power: A player character begins teh game at 1st level... the higher the level number, the more powerful the character is.

2. Level as used to indicate teh depth of the dungeon complex beneath the ground: The 1st level of the dungeon is the first layer of the underground complex of tunnels, passages, rooms, chambers and so forth.... The higher the number, the lower the dungeon level (and the more hazardous its perils).

3. Level as a measure of magic spell difficulty: The magic spells available to some classes of characters are graded by difficulty factor- which, incidentally, reflects the spell's effectiveness to some extent. 1st level spells are the basic ones available to beginning characters. They are generally the least powerful spells... the highest level of any type of magic spell is 9th level, spells usable only by 18th level magic-users...

4. Level as a gauge of a "monster's" potential threat: Relatively weak creatures, monsters with few hit points, limited or non-existent magical abilities, those which do little damage when attacking, and those which have weak, or totally lack, venom are grouped together and called 1st-level monsters. Slightly more powerful creatures are ordered into [higher levels] up to 10th level (the highest, which includes the greatest monsters, demon princes, etc.).

It's important to remember that level has a multiplicity of meanings, which have traditionally been disparate until 4th ed came along (e.g. your party of 6th level characters might cast 3rd level spells at a small group of 5th level monsters on the 4th level of the dungeon). I find it interesting that 4e is the first edition to actually attempt to unify the numerical meaning of "levels" across all its meanings.

I'll have a go, just for 1e > 4e, as 3e's CR system is quite different.

Baseline Goblin: 1-1 hd > 1st level minion:

....

Baseline Orc: 1 hd > 4th level minion:

Hmm, I'm not sure that I buy "baseline orc/goblin = minion" in 4e. Maybe for goblins, but orcs are pretty tough now (they've been growing in toughness since 3e, though).

 

[kinem]

I've done some converting of BECMI modules to 3.x. I tend to think of BECMI levels 1-12 as corresponding to 3.x levels 1-12. After that, it takes about 3 more BECMI levels to equal 1 3.x level. So a 36th level BECMI character is equivalent to a 20th level 3.x character. That is good to know because 36th level NPCs frequently appear in BECMI modules.

AD&D 1e/2e levels are roughly equivalent to BECMI levels.

It varies a lot by 3.x class, but 4e levels 1-30 seem to roughly correspond with 3.x levels of about 2-16.

PF characters are a bit tougher than 3.x ones but the levels closely correspond.

 

[Bluenose]

On the BECM games, the conversion guide in the back of the Rules Compendium suggested levels 1-12 were equivalent to the same levels in AD&D. After that, 3 levels in BECM were equivalent to 1 level in AD&D. So a 1st level Fighter is a 1st level Fighter in either system, a 10th level Cleric is also the same, but a 19th level Magic User (BECM) is a 14th level Magic User (AD&D). I believe I've seen a different, also official, level conversion somewhere else.