Mearls' Legends and Lore (or, "All Roads Lead to Rome, Redux")

And I'd still say that WotC made it massively clear that they were targeting non-gamers with 4E as game with casual fan appeal. The Forge is the ultimate extreme opposite of "casual fan". So I don't see how the Forge stuff is meaningful in any way other than pure academic conjecture.

Actually Forge style games and games inspired by some of the fruits of the discussion there are almost always casual player friendly. Usually character creation is wrapped right into playing the first session and learning the mechanics of the game is often also wrapped right into the procedures of the game itself.

The games are usually also low page count games with a tight focus on having rules only about what the game is about.

If someone wanted to give RPing a try and didn't want to do more than an ounce of prep, I'd definitely recommend something like In A Wicked Age for their casual gaming needs.
 

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Actually Forge style games and games inspired by some of the fruits of the discussion there are almost always casual player friendly. Usually character creation is wrapped right into playing the first session and learning the mechanics of the game is often also wrapped right into the procedures of the game itself.

The games are usually also low page count games with a tight focus on having rules only about what the game is about.

If someone wanted to give RPing a try and didn't want to do more than an ounce of prep, I'd definitely recommend something like In A Wicked Age for their casual gaming needs.
Perhaps. But it is irrelevant because the point is that the casual players won't be hung up on the "Forgian" terminology.

You are not going to see a marketing campaign with a tagline:
Hey Causal Fans!!! The narrativist game (in a Forgian sense) that you have been searching for is here at last.

And that is all before you get back to the point I've made multiple times before: I really don't believe this casual "please make it easy and no prep time" market is particularly big.

Let me know when In A Wicked Age starts to make its move on the market.
 

Which is something I find interesting about 4e. So many people complained about 2e that "no one wants to play a cleric because they just stand around and cast cures". So 3e created the IMO, too versatile cleric. Now with 4e we swing the pendulum back a bit and make every class fill a "role".

And for the cleric, the intention was to create a type of class that can heal without having to stop contributing in other ways in order to do so. They succeeded to a degree, making healing something you can do in addition to attacking, for example.

A couple of the people I play with really love pushing the role system to breaking point. They take a character class that is one role, and choose feats, equipment, abilities, etc., to do their best to fill another. The PHB even had secondary roles already listed for lots of classes.

Again, I have limited experience with the system, so fill me in on how this works exactly. If I am a "striker" like say a ranger, can I have an interest in being a self sacrificial type who takes it on the nose for the party when I can? Or do I need to play say a fighter for that. I realize one will be more optimal for the situation than the other. But is it feasible for a player to decide they want to "Defend" but not play a "Defender" class? If not, how does that effect the players choice of interaction with the ongoing story? Curious more than anything.

You can do it, sort of. A defender usually has some sort of mechanic that punishes an enemy for attacking someone other than themselves (I believe the Pathfinder Cavalier does this as well). So unless you specifically take feats or powers that let you punish people for attacking your friends or allow you to take their blows for them, then it's not going to happen. You'd have to a) intentionally want to develop that secondary role and b) understand the system well enough to choose the right feats, powers and abilities.

This is a good example of where system mastery can limit 4E. It would be challenging to make a defender ranger if you were just a casual player.

But, perhaps it's best to ask what you're attempting to accomplish in making the Ranger a defender. Do you want a wilderness warrior who taps into some nature magic and fights in melee, protecting his friends? What if you considered the Warden class instead of Ranger? A couple two weapon fighting feats and maybe a high dex for using missile weapons and you could be pretty much there.

So yes, for my "railroading" I usually at least detail a fairly sophisticated world for players to explore first. At the very least, I outline a meta-plot of sorts that is running in the background as we play and the players occassionally bump against that meta plot

Why isn't the meta plot spontaneously formed out of the player actions? They might bump into situations that are unfolding, but why is it a pre-decided "meta-plot" and not simply a situation that not even you as the DM knows the results of yet because you don't know how the players will get involved with it?

I said that 4e IMO lends itself to a scripted adventure quite well. Again, if players can't move outside the box and they must confront the bad guys at the time and place the DM prefers then it at least feels more scripted IMO than if the players have the OPTION to teleport in a smack someone around whenever they please.

Yes. If someone wants to run 4E that way, the game will more than support them. Even the best of 4E published modules are terrible in this regard. I had heard such good things about Logan Bonner and Orcs of Stonefang Pass and then when I finally saw the thing, it was literally a straight line pass through the mountains full of orcs. With the players always arriving on scene at the dramatic moment to save the dwarves and learn about how to defeat an ancient evil. I integrated it into my campaign, heavily modified the dungeon to make it non-linear and had the situation unfold in response the the players. End result, all the dwarves died before they could arrive "just in time" and they stopped the ancient evil with a solution not present in the module.

4E absolutely supports an approach where the DM has a bunch of scenes they are going to frame prepared in advance no matter what the players do. But it works so much better when you don't do that.

When you set up situation and respond to it by framing scenes on the fly based on what happened. And the low prep DMing it allows heavily, heavily supports this. I think I posted about this in this thread where I talked about using the Story Now "bangs" technique from Sorcerer and how 4E supports that so well.

Obviously you are a very enlightened DM. You keep talking theory discussing game theory as proposed by people outside the 4e community to defend the constructs of 4e. Who's to say you aren't the DM Heinsoo refers to in his statement?

The difference is how well 4E supports the improv DM with it's low prep nature. In the example of 3.x, when a DM has a problem with "gotcha" spells, the system doesn't support resolving that issue very easily (or at least I never got it to work and neither did anyone I else I ever gamed with in a few different cities).

EDIT: Also, there's a factual error in the above quote. An author of DMG2 is also an author of Forge type games and developed some of the techniques in question. It's not just from people outside of the 4E community.

How anyone can keep saying you can't string these together with combat encounters into a good dungeon crawl is completely beyond me. Its made for it. Sounds great to me frankly.

Because that's a poor dungeon crawl. Going back to OD&D, good dungeon crawling was about players making meaningful decisions.
 
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I found 4E so refreshing on release because it was more like pre-2E versions of D&D. Far, far better suited to improv based play and low prep play than 3.x and it's universal system of simulation. I like it because it supports wildly creative, story/setting exploring, earth shattering type stuff that goes beyond just pushing figures around a battlemap.

There seems to be a solid mix of truths and non sequiturs here.
Low prep: oh yeah
Far far better improv: huh?
wildly creative? I guess, as long as you only retroactively create things that fit the results dictated by the mechanics.
And it is pretty funny considering how frequently 4E powers are built around precisely "pushing" figures around a battlemap.
I'd actually agree that you can do very cool stories in 4E. But the context that it is refreshing in this sense as compared to 3E is boggling.

Wildly creative, but only so long as "the math works".
 


Let me know when In A Wicked Age starts to make its move on the market.

And you accused me of making an irrelevant point. :hmm:

You made some strange statement about how Forge games/techniques/theory was the opposite of casual. All I did was point out that you made an error there. Forge styles games are often the most accessible for casual gamers.

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I definetly got the sense that you wanted to dismiss my point as quickly as possible so you could get back to winning the thread. It's okay to just admit that you have the wrong take on them.
 

There seems to be a solid mix of truths and non sequiturs here.
Low prep: oh yeah
Far far better improv: huh?
wildly creative? I guess, as long as you only retroactively create things that fit the results dictated by the mechanics.
And it is pretty funny considering how frequently 4E powers are built around precisely "pushing" figures around a battlemap.
I'd actually agree that you can do very cool stories in 4E. But the context that it is refreshing in this sense as compared to 3E is boggling.

Wildly creative, but only so long as "the math works".

*Face palm*

I was quoting CuRoi there. I was using his same words (or very similar ones) to help communicate something.

Here's a condition on me replying any further to you. Tell me my point back to me. Show me you're actually engaging in communication and understand what I said that you responded to above. If that means you have to reread what I wrote a bit more charitably, then do so.

Until then, I'll continue discussing this stuff with people who are actually trying to communicate (like CuRoi) rather than win an internet message board game.
 

Honestly, I find it an exhausting waste of time to have to go rolling back through the pages of this thread to find the quotes necessary to have you argue with yourself.

Then might I suggest not trying to quote people back to themselves in order to "win" the thread?

Pemerton was saying something very specific and came at it from two perspectives to try to best communicate it and you took the time to dig them out to do what? Show him contradicting himself so you can declare victory in the internet message board game?

So, to sum up by way of conclusion: You're wrong about the actual rules of 4E. You're wrong about the actual rules of 3E. You're wrong in most of the things you claim 4E does that 3E doesn't. You're frequently wrong about what other people have said. You're even wrong about the things you've actually said.

Here we have a literal declaration of your victory. :erm:
 

IMO it doesn't represent a meaningful segment of the market. But that is just that, my opinion.
It seemed pretty clear to me that 3E was never a top rank game over at the Forge. Is 4E?

And I'd still say that WotC made it massively clear that they were targeting non-gamers with 4E as game with casual fan appeal. The Forge is the ultimate extreme opposite of "casual fan". So I don't see how the Forge stuff is meaningful in any way other than pure academic conjecture.
I agree that the Forge is the opposite of the casual gamer. I don't follow the Forege webpages enough to know to what extent 4e has registered there - I know there was discussion of 3E play there in the past, but obviously it's not the focus (apart from anything else, no version of D&D has been indie since the original booklets!).

But as to whether it represents a meaningful segment of the market, I don't know (although I do pessimistictically suspect). You can certainly play narrativist without being self-conscious about it - I had a GMing approach before I found the Forge, for example - it's just that some of the stuff on the Forge helped me get a better handle on why some of the issues I was having with various games and various mechanics came up in the way they did, and why some GM advice and some descriptions of "good roleplaying" didn't really speak to me, or didn't seem to help me with the game I wanted to run. (In my day job I'm an academic lawyer and philosopher - I also think that makes me the sort of person who is likely to be attracted by a serious attempt to theorise the creative activities that I'm enagged in.)

I agree with you that WotC were looking for new players. But if I understand you right and correctly remember other posts of yours, you think they were aiming at WoW (or WoW-ish) players.

I've never played WoW, but have a number of friends who have been pretty serious players. I've seen it played and heard it talked about quite a bit. My impression of WoW is that it is mostly analagous to a tactical boardgame or highly structured wargame, with a lot of fantasy colour. I assume that this is more-or-less how 4e is seen by those who say it's really a boardgame, or a tactical skirmish game. I also get the feeling that this is the direction in which you, and perhaps Raven Crowking, see 4e as having tended, although I don't think you say that it has gone all the way there.

I really don't see this when I read the 4e rulebooks - or rather, to see this, I'd have to disregard all the discussion of the non-mechanical elements of PC creation, the discussion of skill challenge resolution in both PHB and DMG, and a lot of other rules text as well. But maybe I'm projecting (that's a common human trait, after all).

A notion that has floated around the Forge is hybridization, including the idea that a game might bring in players based around one play purpose, but in the course of play lead them to a different purpose. Maybe WotC thought that WoW players would be attracted by the rules structure plus fantasy colour, and stick around when they discovered what it is that an RPG (including, in my view, 4e) can deliver that WoW doesn't, namely, the opportunity for players to engage the fiction and treat it as more than just colour.

This is all just conjecture, but I'm not sure it's merely academic. If the player base of RPGs is to grow, for example, games have to be written and distributed that offer potential RPGers an activity that the might want to participate in. The Forge take on GNS is one attempt to think seriously about what the activity of RPGing has to offer (this is why, unlike Umbran, I find it more interesting than the WotC market research, which tries to identify what aspects of play existing players enjoy in the game, but doesn't attempt to characterise what the point or points of RPGing might be).
 
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Well the classic one that still has my friend (who was DMing) pissed off is Speak With Dead.

:confused: speak with Dead? An "I win DnD Spell?" or "Easy Button" spell? Really?

From the SRD (I'm sorry to quote the SRD - I know it can be annoying):
"Answers are usually brief, cryptic, or repetitive. If the creature’s alignment was different from yours, the corpse gets a Will save to resist the spell as if it were alive."

Really? To me thats actual story and plot development GOLD. That can't possibly end a murder mystery all it can do is create some really darn intriguing threads to follow.

Who killed you?
Ghostly moan "The one named of colors"
Where did they kill you?
Ghostly moan "In the house of many rooms"
What did they kill you with?
Ghostly moan "A blow to the head"

So...who's game of Clue did I just ruin? :lol: Seriously though, in practice as a DM I use that spell to develop useful riddles which players might be able to jump right to the killer but usually these tidbits just help confirm evidence as they move along. If you never read the description and just assumed "Ahhh this means free flowing two way communication with the deceased! I'm ruined!" then yes, youre screwed.

Can't they still raise dead in 4e? If I recall its much cheaper than it was or something? How does that not just ruin a murder mystery more than a vague disembodied voice?


I don't know if you've been paying attention to any of the proponents of the "Old School Renaissance" or read any of the Q&A articles with the old guard of the early TSR days on Dragonsfoot.org, but there's definitely very divergent approaches to how to game very, very early on.

I'll need to check that out for sure, sounds intriguing. And I don't doubt it - as we have seen in this thread, peopel will take whatever RPG and make whatever they and their group want to out of it, so divergent approahces seem to be par for the course. Thats perfectly fine and keeps it all interesting.

I found 4E so refreshing on release because it was more like pre-2E versions of D&D. Far, far better suited to improv based play and low prep play than 3.x and it's universal system of simulation. I like it because it supports wildly creative, story/setting exploring, earth shattering type stuff that goes beyond just pushing figures around a battlemap.

Well, as mentioned, I can see how a certain style could produce that with 4e - or any RPG for that matter. I just don't think the target audience for 4e was people with that style, if that makes sense. Again, just conjecture here, no "proof" or quotes or anything to support that.
 

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