Mearls' Legends and Lore (or, "All Roads Lead to Rome, Redux")

Pemerton was saying something very specific and came at it from two perspectives to try to best communicate it and you took the time to dig them out to do what?

To demonstrate emphatically that attempting to have any sort of meaningful communication with him is pointless.

When the conversation goes like this:

"Baseball involves throwing a football."
"Actually, a baseball is smaller and rounder than a football."
"By 'round' I meant 'brown'."
"Baseballs are actually white."
"Which is what I meant by 'round'."
"Uhh... Okay. But footballs aren't round or white, and you don't play baseball with them."
"I was never talking about baseball."

It's not worth going 'round that cul-de-sac again. People who change their definitions and claim they never said the things they said are not worth wasting time with.

'Nuff said.
 

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This is a good example of where system mastery can limit 4E. It would be challenging to make a defender ranger if you were just a casual player.

AHA! so there IS system mastery in 4e? Heh, I'm just harrassing you. Thanks for the info on class roles - I did n't play long enough to get a feel for it and still don't fully appreciate it. I sense 4e collapsing under the weight of not too many abused feats or spells but too many abused classes just prior to the release of 5e :lol:

Why isn't the meta plot spontaneously formed out of the player actions? They might bump into situations that are unfolding, but why is it a pre-decided "meta-plot" and not simply a situation that not even you as the DM knows the results of yet because you don't know how the players will get involved with it?


Ahhhh now you are harrassing me! :eek: Well, it can and it can't be formed out of their actions. It all depends on if the players even want to get involved in that overarching plot or not. But it is there because it WILL effect the players somehow simply because it will effect the entire campaign to some degree. I always include some sort of "bigger than you" plot or scheme for the players to encounter. Why? Because thats what good stories are about. If I wrote campaigns about players doing their laundry and looking for work between sparse "adventure" the game would sorta suck dont you think?

I don't know the result, only the intentions of the main actors in the plot. The players must provide the unpredictable part. If they never latch on to it, it will necessarily unfold as I see fit.

Most recently I ran a Serenity campaign. I'll try to give an example and keep it short, but my plots are usually pretty complex so its tricky to do without filling up way too much space (If you haven't seen Firefly you need to, hopefully it makes sense out of context).

The plot involved an internal power struggle in the Alliance. The Blue Sun corporation (mega corp) was run by a renegade power broker whose family had been members of parliament for generations. This parlimentarian, Blackwell, had literally started the Independence War (similar to the US Civil War) as a smokescreen for the Miranda project. After that project's horrific failure, Blackwell and his partner in the top secret endeavor went different ways. Blackwell, in an attempt to salvage the Miranda project was harvesting Reavers from the black, performing some really scary "renditons", securing them in black facilities (completely off government radar) and experimenting with ways to mind control them.

Blackwell's partner in crime was Lu Ming. From the failed Miranda project, he took to his own methods for securing "the future" of the Verse - the experimentation on and training of elite covert operatives (aka River Tam). He continued to pursue this under covert parlimentarian channels. Lu Ming also happened to have has hand in other shady dealings. When a player once enquired about him, the player was told "you know the Tong? He is the Tong (organizaed crime of the Serenity universe)."

Blackwell's plan was to use the Reavers to massacre parliment in a bid to take control of government. Why would this possibly effect the players? Because they lived in this universe and had ties to both the Tong and the Alliance from character backgrounds.

Why did I create all this without input from the players? Well, as has been said - to give them somethign worth doing :) I can imagine a campaign wrought completely on the fly from whole cloth, but unless the players are really driven and focused, it would quickly get stale. In this case, the players went about flying from job to job and every now and then would brush up against this meta plot. A little taste here and there. It was the "big hook" and they were nibblign on it as they sandboxed the universe.

They even encountered a very key part early on in the campaign and only later realized its significance and had to return to that planet to gather more information. For the longest time, I figured they wouldn't get directly involved in this as they seemed to be having fun running from planet to planet being general brigands and privateers.

However, at one point, they did something inexplicable (as players often do). They had a spat on board their ship, someone tossed a grenade and blew a whole in the hull (they tossed into the demolition guys room....) They then collectively DECIDED ON THEIR OWN that the closest spaceport was their BEST option (the planet they just left had law enforcement already on the lookout for them). That spaceport belonged to none other than Nishka. I was bewildered. Nishka is a sadistic, cruel, wholly evil sort of guy. He also had a regular job that involved this major plot for which he always needed boats for (cause they often were never seen again.) From there they were immersed. And from there, they were sort of locked in.

Railroading? I guess. If you call players willingly indebting themselves to a sadistic crime lord that has an interest in using these "nobodies" to handle a suicide mission which they manage to survive by the skin of their teeth which in turn sends them spiralling into a world with REALLY big players on a ride they can't control. I was reeling them in at that point and they were loving it from what I could tell.

4E absolutely supports an approach where the DM has a bunch of scenes they are going to frame prepared in advance no matter what the players do. But it works so much better when you don't do that.

Thank you. This has been my point all along. I will NOT argue with you that talented DMs can't take any game and make it a great ride. I won't even argue that if I really wanted to I could probably take this 4e which I have been so resistant to and make it fit my style. However, I have no desire to take the time to do so when I've got a deeply flawed, but fun system which I enjoy already :)
 

If I am a "striker" like say a ranger, can I have an interest in being a self sacrificial type who takes it on the nose for the party when I can? Or do I need to play say a fighter for that. I realize one will be more optimal for the situation than the other. But is it feasible for a player to decide they want to "Defend" but not play a "Defender" class? If not, how does that effect the players choice of interaction with the ongoing story? Curious more than anything.
The answer is "sort of, but it depends".

Certainly, in any given encounter, it is possible for a player playing a PC of role X to decide that, givem the circumstances, they will do Y instead. A few sessions ago, for example, the sorcerer in my game (who is a multi-target striker) took the front line to protect the fighter and paladin, who (for various reasons related both to resource depletion and current adverse effects) were in need of protection. And the sorcerer in question has enough close range and defensive tricks - like bursting into fire and frying anyone who tries to hit him - that this was viable even if not fully optimal from the striking point of view.

But if a player tried to make this sort of behaviour the norm, it would have an effect on the sort of contribution that his/her PC makes to combat. In this respect, character build choices are an important aspect of 4e. But it is certainly possible to build a PC who comes close to straddling roles - the fighter in my game is not just a self-sacrificing defender, for example, but also a close range controller (he uses a polearm and has lots of forced movement and knock prone capabilities, in addition to basic fighter control). And the paladin is also a healer (the only leader in the party is a hybrid cleric-archer ranger, so the paladin's contribution to overall healing is non-neglible). And the wizard, while a controller, is not combat optimised at all, but built primarily as a scholar and ritualist.

Bottom line: departing from the orientation of your build is definitely sub-optimal, but the range of viable builds is very extensive. And the retraining rules make changes in build over time feasible, although obviously easier at lower than higher levels (because at lower levels what is being retrained at any given level will be a greater proportion of the whole PC).

This means that in choosing a build, you are already choosing to engage with the story in a certain way - not to the extent of prescripting, but making a non-trivial contribution to it.

That's why I regard the issue of GM control over/veto of build as a fairly important one - the more control of this sort that the GM exercises, the more the GM rather than the player is shaping the player's contribution to the story.

Yes, my PCs fight foes. Their foe happens to be whoever they decided to attack
OK, that wasn't clear to me in your earlier post. I know that in some play groups what you describe here is not the case (eg many modules or adventure paths predefine who the "bad guy" is).

Right, the GM frames a scene - all the "situations" if you will and the players must resolve them within the scene limits established by the GM and without help from potentially "scene breaking" spells and the like. I'm pretty sure I get what you are saying.
I would want to add to this: the scene limits aren't just established by the GM but will unfold via the action resolution mechanics; but the absence of "scene breaking" spells means that the players can't test, expand or transcend those limits without having to engage the scene in some sort of meaningful way (for these purposes, I'm not counting "OK, we all teleport away" as meaningful).

What I do think is I have to go back to the "Water to Wine / Wine to Water" comment I made at the start of the debate. I'll wager 90% of the potential DMs that pickup 4e will not at all be thinking of situaional and plot authority. They'll pick up the book, run players through Skill Challenge A and Encounter B, find their plans are never evolved by what the players do, only advanced by what the players do, and be all warm and fuzzy about it. If they stay in that comfort zone and have fun, awesome.

Look, leave the theory aside. I dont see it in the DMG. Now, let yourself be that "new DM" that picks up a DMG. You read the skill challenge section. You see advice on how to set up a skill chellenge, you read the section about "consequences". There is a Success and Failure section.

<snip>

You get the Succes section for the examples which is one sentence. This is essentially "you win". Its cut and dry just as if you took out a foe in a combat. Next you get the failure section which does allow for more amibiguity but is always telling you that the results will push you toward the final quest objective, just with more skill challenges in the way (which, IMO makes the game more fun so losing seems to be the way to go...)

New DM absorbs the info and probably (but not always) walks away with the following: Players win scenarios I have explicitly created without their input and then they move along toward my intended plot goal. If they screw up, they still get there, I just have more challenges which I have created.
The parts of the rules that, to me, tell against what you say here are:

PHB page 259

A skill challenge occurs when exploration … or social interaction becomes an encounter, with serious consequences for success or failure… Your DM sets the stage for a skill challenge by describing the obstacle you face and giving you some idea of the options you have in the encounter. Then you describe your actions and make checks until you either successfully complete the challenge or fail…

DMG pages 72 - 75
More so than perhaps any other kind of encounter, a skill challenge is defined by its context in an adventure…

Begin by describing the situation and defining the challenge. . . You describe the environment, listen to the players’ responses, let them make their skill checks, and narrate the results...

When a player’s turn comes up in a skill challenge, let that player’s character use any skill the player wants. As long as the player or you can come up with a way to let this secondary skill play a part in the challenge, go for it…

In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that you didn’t expect to play a role…

However, it’s particularly important to make sure these checks are grounded in actions that make sense in the adventure and the situation. If a player asks, “Can I use Diplomacy?” you should ask what exactly the character might be doing … Don’t say no too often, but don’t say yes if it doesn’t make sense in the context of the challenge…

What happens if the characters successfully complete the challenge? What happens if they fail?

When the skill challenge ends, reward the characters for their success (with challenge-specific rewards, as well as experience points) or assess penalties for their failure…

the characters’ success should have a significant impact on the story
of the adventure…

If the characters fail the challenge, the story still has to move forward, but in a different direction and possibly by a longer, more dangerous route.​

Also, there is this, under the heading "Player Designed Quests":

DMG page 103
You should allow and even encourage players to come up with their own quests that are tied to their individual goals or specific circumstances in the adventure.​

Like all reasonably complex text, this is open to interpretation. But I don't think it's naturally read as meaning "players have no input into my scenarios" and "players have no say over plot goals".

I don't know any new GMs who have started GMing using the advice in 4e. Do we have any evidence that they are more inclined to run railroads than they are to run scenarios into which their players have a high degree of input? My least experienced player has now been playing RPGs for over 10 years. But from the very start he took it for granted that, as a player, part of his job was to input material into scenarios and to help frame goals - both as part of building the backstory of his PC, and as part of actually playing his PC and engaging with situations in the course of the game. Is there any evidence that my experience with this player was atypical?

There is no mention of relationship maps and diagrams and what some emminent (edit) game designer says about how to use it.
This is true. I think the advice on scenario design in the 4e DMG is not all that good. I think the best D&D advice on scenario design I'm familiar with is actually Moldvay's in the Basic rulebook.
 
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Far far better improv: huh?

For what it's worth, I think 4E is pretty good for improv, at least for me.

There are a couple of ways I think 4E achieves this. (Not trying to make comparisons here, just how it works for me.)

  • I find it easy to resolve "actions the rules don't cover" by using set values for Fort, Ref, and Will.
  • DCs are set by level; I know, as DM, that a 3rd-level monster will have the right DCs to be a 3rd-level challenge, and I can use that handy table on page 42 to set appropriate DCs.
  • I can base any action on the appropriate stat.
  • NPC attacks use a simple formula - level + 5 vs. AC and level + 3 vs Fort, Ref, or Will.
  • I can set the amount of damage any action does by using that table on page 42.

I don't think I use these features in a manner typical to most 4E DMs. A quick example: in a recent setting, the PCs were fighting near an icy river. The level of the hex was pre-determined to be 2. When anyone got pushed into the river, it was simple to determine if the icy waters chilled them to the bone (+5 vs Fort, 3d10+3 damage). When characters try to swim out of the river, I know what the DC is (15).

It should be noted that I use the logical results of actions to determine non-damaging effects; the river's current was pretty strong, so it moved characters 10' per round. In order to make this really work I had to hack things a little bit: "If the action requires another character to be physically maimed, such as stabbing someone in the eye to blind them, and the character taking the action possesses no special talent to deliver this effect, the target must be Bloodied (either before the action is taken or as a result of the action) and be unable to defend themselves from the attack."

(Hmm, I guess that icy river could have given characters pneumonia. Neat.)
 

4E seems to be better suited for scene based play with hard scene framing focused on a story. Now you can do that in a dungeon where the exploration bits are simply scene framing.

<snip>

I found 4E so refreshing on release because it was more like pre-2E versions of D&D. Far, far better suited to improv based play and low prep play than 3.x and it's universal system of simulation. I like it because it supports wildly creative, story/setting exploring, earth shattering type stuff that goes beyond just pushing figures around a battlemap.
Obviously I agree with all this.

An author of DMG2 is also an author of Forge type games and developed some of the techniques in question. It's not just from people outside of the 4E community.
In fact, some of the text in DMG2 is cribbed by Laws almost word-for-word from the revised HeroQuest rulebook.

The 4E Rules Compendium even uses pretty hard scene framing by the DM as an example of how to handle dungeon exploration.
Are you referring here to page 168?

Pemerton was saying something very specific and came at it from two perspectives to try to best communicate it and you took the time to dig them out to do what? Show him contradicting himself so you can declare victory in the internet message board game?
Thanks.
 
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Well, it can and it can't be formed out of their actions. It all depends on if the players even want to get involved in that overarching plot or not. But it is there because it WILL effect the players somehow simply because it will effect the entire campaign to some degree. I always include some sort of "bigger than you" plot or scheme for the players to encounter. Why? Because thats what good stories are about. If I wrote campaigns about players doing their laundry and looking for work between sparse "adventure" the game would sorta suck dont you think?
I prefer a game of adventure rather than laundry. But I also tend to prefer that any big overarching plot be the product of play, and the choices of my players, rather than be set up by me behind the scenes.

Which links back to the idea of "relationship maps", and also Paul Czege's comments about keeping NPC personalities flexible - I like to have a degree of backstory to work with, but exactly what the "big plot" might be, and the details of each NPCs' place in that "big plot", is something worked out in the course of playing the game, as scenes are framed and the players engage and resolve them.

Far far better improv: huh?
Well, for me this links back to the much-debated skill challenge structure.

One issue in GMing in an improv fashion - including the sort of improv described in the previous paragraph, of working with a loose backstory plus player concerns and interests revealed in actual play to shape and gradually unfold a "big plot" - is coming up with new and interesting ideas and incorporating them into the game.

A mechanic like a skill challenge, and other mechanics that it resembles like HeroWars/Quest extended contests, help with this issue by supporting the introduction of complications into scenes. They do this in two ways: (i) by mandating the introduction of complications at certain points in the game - they stop the GM from being forgetful or blase in this respect; and (ii) because of the triggers for this mandate, they help make sure that the GM has something interesting to work with (namely, the material provided by the players) to help shape and introduce those complications.

To me, this seems to be something like the opposite approach to RPGing to the one you articulated upthread, where the mechanics are in principle invisible and the fiction unfolds purely by its own internal logic. Are you able to say anything about how you improvise under that approach? Is it important to incorporate players ideas/contributions, or is the GM the arbiter of what fits into the fiction?
 

The answer is "sort of, but it depends".

That's why I regard the issue of GM control over/veto of build as a fairly important one

Fair enough, and a good explanation to boot. My spidey sense is tingling so I won't ask for an explanation about GM control/veto over builds...

I would want to add to this: the scene limits aren't just established by the GM but will unfold via the action resolution mechanics; but the absence of "scene breaking" spells means that the players can't test, expand or transcend those limits without having to engage the scene in some sort of meaningful way (for these purposes, I'm not counting "OK, we all teleport away" as meaningful).

Ok, I see your statement here - so can a player interact in a meaningful way with the scene and produce a "teleport effect"? In essence, lets say the skill challenge is inside a combat which the players cannot hope to win and the embedded "skill challenge" involves activating magic runes that teleports the party to safety. The trick is accomplishing this while the fight rages on? Is that a fair depiction of a skill challenge?

Again, I see the value, however it mucks with my game style. I WANT players to pressure me to react to their crazy stuff. I don't want to plan some sort of Word of Recall slot machine into a fight (but I like the idea, heh). If the players have access to Teleport spells, I want to make them be forced to use them to save their skin because they just went through the absolute wrong door and soiled their armor. I want the players to be so vexxed by the murder mystery that they actually resort to Speak with Dead so I can play a vague and annoying disembodied voice. I want my players to cast Find the Path so I can lead them around by the nose as they surprise my "bad guys" and we can all just see what happens.

If these skill challenges are so open and so conducive to "improvisation", I can't see how the same DM that could handle them would ever claim that 3e has any "I win DnD spells" or "scene breaking spells".

As far as the provided quotes:

The only thing in the quotes I see is that players might sometimes suggest novel uses of skills and the DM should generally allow whatever players can rationalize. Show me the part that says the players should feel free to completely circumvent your skills challenge and proceed to "point Z" so you should be prepared at point Z for this possibility. Then, I'll know the Skill Challenge concept is for my group :lol:

Ahhh but the counter argument is "all the 4e Skill challenge / scene circumventing power of players has been removed, so there is no need to say that players will bypass your skill challenge without interacting with it in a meaningful way. To which I have to again say - how is this not considered scripted again? How exactly do oyu interact in a meaningful way to transcend a skill challenge? Having to interact with it precludes any transcending...

I love the "RPing on top of the rules" statement someone made earlier. At my table, I think any Skills Challenge would have to be so transparent as to be unrecognizable as such or my players would quickly get bored with it. In which case, I'm simply running my game as I always do - reacting to players decisions and telling them what happens when the roll the dice.

My table with the skills challenges as written (recall I've got a bit of twisted sense of humor)

Grimnoft, Cleric of Maeve approaches a lonely beggar on the side of the road.
Grimnoft: Hello. What are doing out so far from the village on this fair night?
DM: The old man looks up at you pleadingly and points at his open mouth with a shrug.
Grimnoft: Whats wrong with you good man?
Tolidor: Maybe he's hungry...I'll get him some food.
DM: Ummm....you guys need to be making some rolls...Grim roll a Sense Motive and Tolidor a Diplomacy?
Grimnoft, Cleric of Maeve: "Fine I rolled a 25 Sense Motive."
DM: Ok, you sense that something is not quite right with this man and he needs something from you...
Grimnoft: "C'mon, a 25 and thats all I get? Aww son of a..., this guy I just asked a question is a skills challenge? How many more rolls until we win?"
Tolidor, Wizard/ Rogue: "Yeah, saw that golden question mark floating over his head a mile away. Christ, I've got cooking if I have to roll to hand him some bread."
Etain, Bard: "Ok, well, I use Perform (cause its my highest score) instead of Diplomacy to convince him by telling him a story about how we are brave adventurers that...
Norha, Fighter: "Forget it - enough talk. I gut 'em and we move on down the road, now."
DM: Ummm you guys just failed the Skill Challenge. There will be more skills challenges now until I get you back on track for the story.
Collective groans rise from the table.

Like all reasonably complex text, this is open to interpretation. But I don't think it's naturally read as meaning "players have no input into my scenarios" and "players have no say over plot goals".

This isn't A Critique of Pure Reason here...I don't find it that complex honestly. I'm sure with a lot of background in game theory and such you can read all kinds of things into it. Assuming every potential viewer of the passages has that background is probably a bad idea. To me it all seems pretty simple.

Show me where it does say the players do have input into how the scenario turns out aside from rolling random skills to reach the pre-defined conclusions for the pre-defined adventure using ways to deal with challenges as framed entirely by the DM. DM narrates and fail or succeed, players trudge along toward pre-defined resolution of the story. Sure it has a passing reference to players making up their own challenges. Very cool. But why cant a player just play their role and react to the world how they want and the world more organically reacts back?

I know, a great DM can make it more transparent and can incorporate it into a less "follow the leader" format. I get that. I won't dispute that. I don't however think I will see eye to eye with you on the point that 4e is specifically written in such a way that encourages improvisational play. And it does this by specifically by removing player "shock and awe" spells and by creating a defined method for interacting with the world outside of combat that really sort of mimics combat.

If you mean improvisational by the DM now has guidelines and a necessity to describe to players what random skill or power X does during a challenge, then yes, its got that in spades. If you mean improvisational in that this is a game where both players and DMs get to explore a story together and each make meaningful decisions which may force the DM to re-evaluate their own idea of what the "story" is then I say no, it doesn't do that in the least. It can, in the right hands. But IMO previous editions do this job far better.
 

If I understand how you achieve Story Now in 4E, I think the archer-ranger could have potential. I can see a PC whose backstory is pretty simple - town destroyed by orcs, survived on their own by keeping at range and using the "slippery" powers that Rangers have. When playing the game, there will be times when you have to decide if you want to save your own hide or if you trust these guys you've been fighting with enough to take a hit or two.

How do you (pemerton) set up situations where this will come into play?
What you've described is actually something like the ranger in my game. Perhaps, to an extent, it's the player rather than the class!

Because my party has only a hybrid cleric and a paladin, healing is always at a premium,
and thus questions of sacrifice versus selfishness (not to the point of PC death, but certainly to the point of PC disadvantage in a given combat) come up fairly regularly without me having to do anything much other than set the machine in motion.

The DMG talks about setting up encounters with "front lines" of soldiers and brutes, and the ideal for a PC party seems often to be expressed in terms of a "front line" of defenders. But I tend to find that the encounters I set up rarely have a straightforward front line. This is in part because a number of the PCs have significant movement abilities, and use them, it's in part because our chaos sorcerer has a habit of rolling 1s and pushing everyone, and it's in part because of the sorts of terrain I use - more open terrain and fewer rooms.

What that means, then, is that quite often the players have to make decisions about who will engage what, who will move where to support whom, and so on - and the main thematic content that comes out these decisions, I feel, is a consideration of honour and shame - who is doing the right thing, who is pulling their weight, who is unreasonably grandstanding (this accusation is levelled mostly at the sorcerer, who is also a drow, and who is often cavalier in his use of darkness to shape the battlefield in a way that maximises his chance for success and glory at the expense of other PCs), etc. Sometimes this is fairly lighthearted, but sometimes - for example, in the encounter where the party played it too safely and failed to rescue the prisoners in the ritual circle early enough, allowing one to be sacrificed by the gnoll ritualists - it can be a bit more serious. Sometimes I will use the monsters and develop the situation in such a way as to play this up - for example, deliberately focus on targetting the wizard or sorcerer to see how the defenders respond - but sometimes it's driven by the players.

I think honour and shame - which can also tie in to related values like courage, self-sacrifice etc - as the focus of intraparty rivalry is also one way in which rivalry can flourish, and play out in an interesting way, without actually breaking up the party play in a way that doesn't really work for D&D. (And I think my approach to GMing this is probably influenced by the superhero team comics - especially the X-Men - that I used to read back in the day).

An example from my session on Sunday: the PCs had been staying with some witches who had helped them, and whom they had helped. The situation was less than friendly, but certainly stable (the result of an earlier skill challenge). To help the PCs and witches work together to explore a site on the Shadowfell, the PCs had agreed to send an Animal Messenger (via ritual) to summon a fourth witch from her tower, who (the other witches assured the PCs) has expertise in matters Shadowfell-related.

I took the view that the players, by willingly participating in bringing this new complication into the situation, had opened the door to me reopening the result of the earlier skill challenge. (And in practical terms, they had certainly benefited from both mechanically and in the context of the fiction. So to reopen it would hardly be to rip them off.) The fourth witch (a Night Hag) therefore attacked them when she arrived in the middle of the night. At first the other witches hestitated to take part. The PCs (and the players) were taking a keen interest in this, making Insight checks and so on from the first round in order to try and size up the situation. Instead of trying to dissuade the other witches from taking part in the attack, however, they took the approach of waiting and seeing - and two of the other three decided to participate in the fight. I kept the third witch out in part for encounter balance reasons, but also because, of the three, she was the only one who had actually had her life saved by the PCs - and it therefore seemed proper that she of all the witches show the most loyalty to them.

So far I've talked about setting up a combat situation in such a way as to make honour, loyalty, shame etc relevant - in the combat itself this played out in the way the PCs oriented themselves towards the undecided - and later committed - witches, in terms of defensive positioning, responding to their attacks and so on. There were also more immediate and somewhat self-contained episodes, like when the tiefling paladin charged through a wall of fire that one of the witches had summoned and then made an Intimidate roll against a second witch, a Howling Hag whose blasphemous whispers (a damaging aura) included rantings against tieflings, drow and the like as part of the self-justificatory story she was telling about her own betrayal of them. This charge was a self-contained display of grandstanding, as well as a response to the overall situation of betrayal by the witches.

At the end of the encounter, the PCs negotiated with the witch who had not joined in the betrayal, letting her keep the spellbook with Wall of Fire (the 10th level fire tome from Arcane Power) and suggesting to her a nice place to set up shop in a forest several days travel to the south. So I thought that there was an interesting balance between honour/loyalty and shame/disloyalty in the way the players resolved the conflict - clearly a type of self-interest in letting the witches join their newcomer sister in the fight without much attempt to dissaude them, motivated in part by the desire not to have to share with them any proceeds from the Shadowfell venture, but also a degree of magnanimity in the way they dealt with the witch who did not betray them.

As for skeletons, I think they can carry a lot of thematic meaning. They're undead, so they used to be someone who was once alive. They were either raised by horrible necromantic rituals or by a source of necrotic energy.
Agreed, but the basic skeletons in the MM (decrepit skeletons, 3rd level soldier skeletons, even the blazing skeletons) don't really give mechanical voice to this in the way that (for example) the zombies do.

* A group of soldiers who vowed to defend a keep until the return of the True King; the keep has fallen into ruin and the soldiers have died long ago, but the power of their vow has kept them in a state of undeath.

* Recognizing the skeletons as people that you once knew; perhaps your PC sent them on a scouting mission. Now they're back as skeletons. That could carry a punch.
All good stuff. The second idea could be implemented via something like the wight's "horiffic visage" power.

For what it's worth, I think 4E is pretty good for improv, at least for me.

There are a couple of ways I think 4E achieves this. (Not trying to make comparisons here, just how it works for me.)

  • I find it easy to resolve "actions the rules don't cover" by using set values for Fort, Ref, and Will.
  • DCs are set by level; I know, as DM, that a 3rd-level monster will have the right DCs to be a 3rd-level challenge, and I can use that handy table on page 42 to set appropriate DCs.
  • I can base any action on the appropriate stat.
  • NPC attacks use a simple formula - level + 5 vs. AC and level + 3 vs Fort, Ref, or Will.
  • I can set the amount of damage any action does by using that table on page 42.

I don't think I use these features in a manner typical to most 4E DMs. A quick example: in a recent setting, the PCs were fighting near an icy river. The level of the hex was pre-determined to be 2. When anyone got pushed into the river, it was simple to determine if the icy waters chilled them to the bone (+5 vs Fort, 3d10+3 damage). When characters try to swim out of the river, I know what the DC is (15).
What you describe here seems pretty similar to how I do things. Except instead of hexes having levels, I set the levels of hazards/monsters/traps etc based on the encounter-building guidelines in the DMG (and so would set the level for the river based on these considerations, and defaulting to the PCs' level).

Also, when the situation is one of exploration rather than tactical combat, I tend to use skill checks by the players rather than attacks against PCs by the terrain/hazard. So while in a combat I might use the river in the way you describe (in my last session, it wasn't an icy river but rather prismatic walls), in an exploration context I'd be more likely to call for an Endurance check against the appropriate DC (with loss of healing surges as the consequence).

I am reminded of an adventure from my first 3E campaign:

<snip adventure details>

In response I asked the player how his PC felt about his actions. I let the player decide which powers he lost, if any. I believe he gave up a few of them - Cure Disease for sure. I used the loss of that power to drive a future adventure.

I also let the player decide when he regained the use of his abilities.

I'm not sure that was Story Now; that game took place in the fall of 2001, a long time ago! We did play fast-and-loose with the rules in order to get a slightly different experience, and I think those decisions had a big effect on the game.
Good story.

And it sounds pretty "story now" to me. I agree with Ron Edwards that narrativist play is more common than is often thought, and that it's a mistake to get to hung up on how deep the thematic material is or how self-conscious the play group is in putting into play and working with it. For me, rather than looking at self-consciousness, I think about all the typical ways that the play in question would be shut down by simulationist priorities - "You're not playing your character properly" or "You're violating your alignment" would be the standard shutdown techniques for the scenario you describe.

Here are some quotes from here and here:

Narrativist character creation in some games requires a fair amount of back-story, just as some Simulationist play does, but in the former, it's about establishing a chassis for conflict, metagame, and reward, and in the latter, it's about Coloring the character and providing oppportunities for GM-created hooks. I rank the conflict between these concepts, during play, among the highest-risk situations for the survival of a gaming group. Strategies to resolve this conflict, whether social or design-oriented, are currently not well-developed in the hobby...

In Simulationist play, morality cannot be imposed by the player or, except as the representative of the imagined world, by the GM. Theme is already part of the cosmos; it's not produced by metagame decisions. Morality, when it's involved, is "how it is" in the game-world, and even its shifts occur along defined, engine-driven parameters. The GM and players buy into this framework in order to play at all...

when you-as-player get proactive about an emotional thematic issue, poof, you're out of Sim. Whereas enjoying the in-game system activity of a thematic issue is perfectly do-able in Sim, without that proactivity being necessary...

[There are r]ole-players who play Narrativist already, but who think what I'm describing must be harder or more abstract than it is. Since they can identify Exploration of Character and Situation in their play preferences, they think they must be playing Simulationist. "That's Narrativist? But we do that, using a plain old well-known role-playing game - it can't be Narrativist!"​

Your story also reminds me of something that happened early in my career as a Rolemaster GM. In Rolemaster most victories in combat are by disablement of the enemy rather than killing - because of the way concussion hits and crits work in that system - but there is always the chance of killing an enemy with a high crit roll. So it wasn't until many sessions in that the paladin PC killed his first human in combat. The player has his PC go into a grieving period, and head out into the wilderness to meditate. I rolled a random encounter (as the rules told me to!) and, via the slightly bizarre collection of tables that govern RM random encounters, ended up rolling a moderarely low level demon.

I had the demon come up to the meditating paladin and start taunting him about his moral failings in having killed a man. I assumed that the player would respond by having his PC attackg the demon and regain confidence in himself, on the grounds that no demon can speak the truth. But instead the player took the view that the demon was a punishment sent by his god, and therefore took no defensive actions as the demon proceeded to pummel him into unconsciouness - at which point I decided that it got bored, realising that this paladin's spirit wasn't going to be broken, and therefore left him alone.

This was in 1990, and I didn't have any terminology to describe the difference between the game I was running - and enjoying running and playing in - and the 2nd ed AD&D game from which I was a refugee, and the games similar to that that were going on around me. (I'd now describe them as moderately dysfunctional high concept simulationism - moderately dysfunctional because of the excessive and clunky GM force being used to keep the exploration on topic). And at that time I also prioritised a tight correlation between system and gameworld much more than I do now (hence, in part, my choice of RM as a system) - in practice, that early RM game was probably as much purist-for-system as narrativist in its focus. But RM doesn't have alignment or moral "reality" built into the system as part of its simulationist mechanics, and I think this - together with the approach to play that we all took as a group - made it easier to play in a narrativist fashion without having the rulebooks jump up at us to tell us that we were doing it wrong.
 

I prefer a game of adventure rather than laundry. But I also tend to prefer that any big overarching plot be the product of play, and the choices of my players, rather than be set up by me behind the scenes.

So your worlds don't evolve at all without player input? Interesting. There is no "bigger than you" sort of plot or story that players could, if they choose, get involved in? The only plots that happen are plots they essentially create by their choices?

Sigh. Alright, I give up trying to understand this. You say you don't create plots or "big plots" even and that the world really only evolves as your players request it. You don't create challenges and encounters ahead of time, and you freely adapt and create new challenges as the need arises. How again are Teleports and Divination a problem at all aside from circumventing a the 4e "x rolls required" mechanic for skill challenges? It really makes no sense. By your claims only your players are creating anything meaningful in your game yet you think use of powers that let them bypass your on the fly, off the cuff skills challenges somehow threatens the integrity of the game??? :erm:

Anyway, I'd love to see more about the relationship maps. Feel free to PM one from your current campaign if you have it in electronic format! Thanks!
 

Fair enough, and a good explanation to boot. My spidey sense is tingling so I won't ask for an explanation about GM control/veto over builds...
Feel free not to bite if your spidey-sense is still tingling - but an oft-discussed issue on these threads is player entitlement, whether or not the GM has a final veto over what game elements players can bring into the campaign, etc.

I think that for any game, given that the PC is the player's vehicle for engaging with the fiction, the more GM control is exercised the more this limits, in certain respects at least, the player's scope for that engagement. But the significance of this can vary a lot from system to system, because different systems makes the PC build more or less important to enaging the fiction. In a game like 4e it's pretty important, for the reasons I gave. And so GM control over build really is, in my view, in danger of having an adverse effect on player protagonism.

Like I said - feel very free not to bite!

Ok, I see your statement here - so can a player interact in a meaningful way with the scene and produce a "teleport effect"? In essence, lets say the skill challenge is inside a combat which the players cannot hope to win and the embedded "skill challenge" involves activating magic runes that teleports the party to safety. The trick is accomplishing this while the fight rages on? Is that a fair depiction of a skill challenge?
That could be a possibility. The closest I've come to something like what you describe in my game was a situation in which the PCs had to fight a vampire in an underground room which was rapidly filling with water through many holes in the roof. Their actions included pulling open the drain plug, and forcing open the doors and then jamming their self-closing mechanism with a mace.

The more typical skill challenge in my game is a social encounter, overland travel, or an attempt to understand or defuse some weird magical phenomenon. I don't use a lot of skill challenges imbedded in encounters, because (in my experience) it's non-trivial to get the pacing and balance issues right.

I WANT players to pressure me to react to their crazy stuff.
Well, so do I, but I guess it depends a bit what the crazy stuff is.

From my point of view, I think it hurts the sort of game I want to run if the mechanics of the game make it expedient for the players to have their PCs do one thing, but the game would be more interesting or engaging if they did another thing. A banal examle - nearly everyone agrees that the occasional swing from a chandelier is more dramatic then merely having two combatants stand next to one another and slug it out. A more specific example from my game - the fighter was one one side of a hyena pack filling the corridor, but wanted to get to the other side to protect one of the PCs (I think the paladin) who was isolated there, and so jumped over the pack - requiring a successful Athletics check and taking an opportunity attack in the process. The dramatic jump is, I think, more interesting then teleporting. Yet another example, more generic again: a fight which involves lots of movement, back-and-forth of advantage, and difficult decisions to be made, is more interesting and engaging than a fight which is resolved without any of that, because all the real work was done in planning and buffing before the party teleported in.

So 4e doesn't get in the way of crazy stuff, but I think it is designed to reduce incentives that encourage expedience at the expense of flair.

If these skill challenges are so open and so conducive to "improvisation", I can't see how the same DM that could handle them would ever claim that 3e has any "I win DnD spells" or "scene breaking spells".
Do the examples I give shed any additional light?

As far as the provided quotes:

The only thing in the quotes I see is that players might sometimes suggest novel uses of skills and the DM should generally allow whatever players can rationalize. Show me the part that says the players should feel free to completely circumvent your skills challenge and proceed to "point Z" so you should be prepared at point Z for this possibility.

<snip>

To which I have to again say - how is this not considered scripted again? How exactly do oyu interact in a meaningful way to transcend a skill challenge? Having to interact with it precludes any transcending...

<snip>

Show me where it does say the players do have input into how the scenario turns out aside from rolling random skills to reach the pre-defined conclusions for the pre-defined adventure using ways to deal with challenges as framed entirely by the DM.
The short answer here is: the bit where it talks about player-designed quests. Which will mean player-instigated encounters (both combat and skill challenges).

The longer answer also points to the fact that, once players start making "novel use of skills", the way in which the fiction unfolds is not under the sole control of the GM. So the concusion hasn't been predefined.

As for transcending skill challenges, there are two cases. The first is fairly straightforward - if the players aren't interested in the stakes of the challenge anymore, or if some other development has happened that makes those stakes irrelevant, then the challenge is over. (For example, if the skill challenge involves negotiation over how a particular magic item is to be dealt with, and in the course of the negotiation someone drops the item through a rift to the Far Realm, then the skill challenge has probably come to an end - at least in its present form - and the fictional situation proceeds from wherever it had got to. This is much like a combat that suddenly stops because both sides recognise that they've got better reasons to be friends than to fight.)

The second case, though, is where the challenge is still on foot, but the players just don't want to be part of it. The question in this case is analogous to asking how, in classic dungeon play (say in Basic, or in AD&D 1st ed) a player is to "transcend" the dungeon? Well, once you're in it, there is no way to do so within the game - other than, for examle, by letting the next monster you see eat you. But the real solution is not to play with GMs who design boring dungeons.

The answer with a skill challenge is much the same. The skill challenges a GM designs - whether or not in response to player-initiated quests - are the game. If the GM cannot frame skill challenges that are worth anyone's time (to paraphrase Ron Edwards) then yes, the game will suck.

It might seem that one solution to boring dungeons or adventures is teleporting out of them. But if the GM is no good, this is likely to be at best a short-term solution. Because ulimately you're still relying on the GM to make something interesting happen wherever it is that you end up after teleporting.

Likewise with a skill challenge. If the players "teleport out of it" by refusing to participate and just letting it proceed straight through to failure, then they might fairly quickly move their PCs into a different situation in the game. But if the GM is no good, this is likely not to be a very good solution.

In this respect, designing a skill challenge is no different from designing a dungeon (for those games that use them) or desiging a metaplot (for those games that use them) or designing a campaign world (for those games that use pre-defined campaign worlds) - if it's not worth anyone's time, the game is likely to suck. I don't think skill challenges are hostage to this problem in any special way.
 

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