Mearls on Controller design and At-Will balance

[77IM]

Brainstorming a class feature for a wizard that fills the "controller" role:

• Wizard may swap damage for slides in his powers,
• Wizard may swap damage for slow or immobilized conditions,
• Ranged Bursts gain +1 Atk if no ally is adjacent to burst,
• Wizard may swap out his Daily power (minor action) if he "uses" his spellbook,
• Class Feature Power: a minor action ranged power (encounter) that slides enemies +1/2 Int squares,
• Class Feature Power: a minor action close burst 5 power (encounter) that switches two adjacent allies (or self),
• Class Feature Power: a minor action ranged power that creates difficult terrain in up to +Int squares,
• etc

This ain't hard.

But it is fun!

• Wizards area and close attacks get +1 to their size (area burst 2 becomes area burst 3)
• Wizards can exclude a certain number of allies (Wis mod?) from an area attack (limit the number of times per encounter?)
• Enemies get a -2 penalty on saves against wizard effects that "(save ends)" (like orb mastery, but not as cheese-prone)
• Once per round, a wizard can sustain a power with "Sustain Minor" as a free action.
• +1 (or +2?) distance on all pushes/pulls/slides
• Once per encounter, "upgrade" a status effect on a victim of one of your powers: slowed -> immobilized, immobilized -> restrained, dazed -> stunned, stunned -> dominated, etc.

-- 77IM

 

[Leatherhead]

No, wizard's special something is the spell book, allowing them to choose their power based on what impact they expect it to have. Druids have their flexibility a different way.

The cantrips are just handy bonuses. But you don't need class features to do your job well, if you're a power-based role like a Controller.

Spellbooks are kind of a hold-over from previous editions, and not exclusive to the Wizard or controller role at any rate (see Swordmage). Orb of Imposition and Wand of Accuracy are the closest things to a controller class feature that
Wizards have.

 

[BarkingDeathSquirrel]

My personal tweaks I made based on the recent controller powers:

Magic Missiles - renamed "Magic Missiles". Range 20, targets one or two creatures no more than 3 squares apart. Int vs. Ref, 1d6+Int damage. At 21st, targets one, two, or three creatures no more than 3 squares apart, 2d4+Int damage. No longer counts as a ranged basic attack.
Reasoning: Kinda reminiscent of the 3.5 version of the spell. Divine Lightning still has a better chance of being able to strike maximum number of creatures (since Magic Missile is, more or less, targeting a burst 3 area), but Magic Missile can strike from a longer range. At epic levels, Divine Lightning does more damage, but Magic Missile targets more creatures.

Ray of Frost - On a critical hit, the target is immobilized instead of slowed. Can be used as a Ranged Basic Attack.
Reasoning: Difference between being immobilized and slowed is somewhat fairly minor (to a certain extent, anyway), but making it occur only on crits limits the effect it will have. Being able to use it as a Ranged Basic Attacks just seems like a natural choice, especially with the changes I made to Magic Missile.

Scorching Burst - Damage upped to 2d4+Int (4d4+Int at 21st).
Reasoning: With dealing Int damage every time the target makes a opportunity attack, it has the potential to deal a lot more damage than Scorching Burst, even with the damage as it now (especially if the Invoker has a high Int). Upping the damage goes with the theme of the current Wizard at-wills supposedly focusing more on damage than control... I might lower (well sort of...) than damage to 1d8... but I like having reasons to use the d4's

Cloud of Daggers - Can be used as a Ranged Basic Attack. I might rewrite this to just target a single creature to avoid any weirdness resulting from that...
Reasoning: Don't really have a good reason, just kinda liked the idea.

Illusionary Ambush - On a critical hit, the target grants combat advantage to the next attack made against it before the end of its next turn.
Reasoning: There are probably enough ways to get combat advantage that one more that occurs semi-rarely won't affect much. Also kinda meshes nicely with the flavor text.

I also added one new at-will power, based off a power the gnome illusionist in the MM has:

Startling Glamor
At-Will * Arcane, Implement, Illusion, Psychic
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One Creature
Attack: Int vs Will
Hit: 1d8 + Int psychic damage, slide target 1 square.
Special: Can be used as a ranged basic attack.
Reasoning: I've had this power in my Wizard house rules for a while now (though the damage was only 1d6+Int... and it wasn't a ranged basic attack), and with the Invoker having a similar (basically the same...) power, I guess it wasn't a bad idea, after all. I'm kinda thinking of removing the damage and making it take a Minor Action to use... even more like the power the Gnome in the MM has...

These changes are probably a bit more than are needed, but, meh... I think they mesh nicely with the At-Wills the Druid and Invoker are getting... *shrugs*

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

I think it'd be nice to replace all the implement mastery effects with something more "controllery." Only Orb of Imposition has a control effect now, and it's very weak at low levels and very broken at high. Also, I'd like the masteries to be in constant use during an encounter, more like the defender's marking and striker's extra damage, rather than just once an encounter.

Something like these:

Staff of Immobility: When you hit with a Wizard power that targets Fortitude, the target takes a penalty to speed equal to your Con mod until the end of your next turn. If their speed is reduced to zero, they are immobilized.

Wand of Accuracy: When you hit with a Wizard power that targets Reflex, the target gets a penalty to AC and Ref Defense equal to your Dex mod until the end of your next turn.

Orb of Imposition: When you hit with a Wizard power that targets Will, the target takes a penalty to all attacks equal to your Wis mod until the end of your next turn.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Once per encounter at the cost of a feat(with possible free skill) vs. every round at the cost of an at-will.

Ah, I see your point. SB is better as an at-will, just not as much better, in your estimation, as the 'cost' of "one of two at-wills" vs "one of upto 16 feats." Of course, there are a /lot/ more feats to choose from than at-wills, too. But that's very much a value judgement, and one that's hard to quantify or argue.

I'll stand by the assertion that a power that's worth having 1/encounter is well worth having on tap every round.

Effect: The burst creates a zone of flames. Any creature that ends its turn in the zone or that enters the zone takes additional damage equal to your CON, DEX, or WIS modifier. Overlapping applications of this zone do not stack. The zone persists until the end of your next turn.

Well, it's an upgrade. Kinda stomps all over Cloud of Daggers, though.

I mean the whole point of this thread is not that wizards "sucks" in general but more that the at-wills of wizards are crap compared to the at-wills invokers have to the point that you can ask yourself why do wizards have suck bad at wills compared to them?

I suppose you could possit that the design team first over-compensated for casters being too powerful in prior editions by 'nerfing' them a little too hard, including the wiz, then overcompensated in the other direction with the Invoker, when they heard complaints that the wizard wasn't powerful or controllery enough.

Classic 'pendulum' stuff.


Hmmm... Orb is too weak at 1st, too broken at high level, and not controllery enough? How 'bout:

Orb: 1/encounter you can choose 1 enemy who is affected by one of your wizard powers /cast through your orb implement/ that a save can end. That enemy takes a -2 penalties to his saves against that power until that power ends. If you have a wisdom bonus, the number of enemies you can affect this way is increased by your Wisdom bonus. You must have line of effect to each enemy to be affected.

 

[eprieur]

2d4 isn't that far off from 1d10. And while they can't add that single point here and there from feats, they CAN add it in from items and such.

And 1d6+int is good enough when multi targets DO apply. War wizards take Cloud of Daggers and Scorching Burst, thus giving them single and multi-target capability in their at-wills. Let's face it, Cloud of Daggers is a as damaging a power as Sly Flourish.

Actually let's do more then just face it, let's give actual numbers.

Strangely due to the way cloud of daggers work it will do the most damage with the highest wisdom, not the highest hit. Since "auto hit" damage is worth nearly double normal damage each point of wisdom is worth double each point of int which make the best cloud of dagger wizard someone with 20 wisdom and 14 int. Incidentally as a wizard you will suck even more with those stats.

Lvl 1 wizard with cloud of daggers against a target with 15 def (50% base hit), counting a +1 bonus damage from feat either staff weapon focus or something else:
-20 int, 14 wisdom = 6.875 dpr.
-18 int, 16 wisdom = 6.95 dpr.
-16 int, 18 wisdom = 7.125 dpr.
-14 int, 20 wisdom = 7.4 dpr.

A human battle rager fighter with weapon focus, 20 str, using an execution axe will hit for 9.9 dpr vs a target with 17 def and 11.1 dpr while "Raging".

2-h weapon fighter will do around that too with reaping strike or cleave.

Human Ranger, WF, 2WF, Twin Strike Waraxe: 11.925dpr. (4 feats but still, at least the feats are there to increase damage while the wizard doesn't have any he can take).

Elf Ranger, WF + Primeshot, Twin Strike Great bow: 10.45 dpr.

Rogues:

Dodger Halfling Rogue, WF + 2WF, Nimble Blade,Piercing strike , Rapier
(5 feats): 14.525 counting sneak attack but not the flanking +2 bonus. With the flanking bonus it's even more disgusting at 16.575 dpr.

Brutal Human Rogue, WF + 2WF, Nimble Blade,Basic Attack Rapier (his defense is very bad though with only 14 dex): 15.475 dpr, 18 dpr with the flanking bonus (remember that range attackers cannot flank).

Those are pretty much the highest dpr that I checked. I don't have any numbers on the barbarians or the warlock, maybe I'll do them when I have more time.

But note the following things. A rogue can easily take 4-5 feats in the heroic tier and they each add something like 0.5 to nearly 1 dpr to a built while the wizard cannot really take more then 1 feat for "damage".

Also the superior weapon feats are huge and add a minimum of 1dpr per "w" at least.

So basically, my retarded wizard with 20 wisdom and his 7.4 dpr with daggers is basically not even in the same league as the strikers in term of damage. Each time a wizard use an at-will to do damage he's basically showing everyone how much he's sucking unless he hit 3 targets with a scorching burst. At 2 targets you can at least mention it but even with 2 targets you are only in the 10 dpr range. 3 targets you fall in the 14.5 dpr range.

Wizards will scale at best like a ranger but again unless you are hitting on average more then 2 targets you are never close.

 

[Mengu]

I think "Controller" was an unfortunate label for the wizard. AoE master would have been a more apt role name. Cloud of Daggers is about as small as they could have an AoE feel for an at-will power. Scorching Burst and Thunderwave are it's kin that do more collateral damage. I think all these powers came from the the "blow 'em up" mage concept.

In this context, the at-will powers don't look so bad. But add in all the new mobility that mixes up the battle field, and all manner of roles that can target multiple opponents from twin strike to dragonborn breath to a variety of magical items, the wizard's role as the AoE master begins to yield diminishing returns as other roles can do their share of AoE's.

From a design stand point, it would have been better to shift the warlocks more toward damage, and wizards more toward debuffs. This would define roles much clearer. Unfortunately, some debuffing abilities would have to be removed from the rogue and warlock as part of the clean up.

Leader - buffer/healer
Controller - debuffer/AoE master
Striker - damage dealer
Defender - tank

Inevitably, as more classes are added on, roles will blur a bit. As it turns out, they started out pretty blurred with clerics, rogues, warlocks, and fighters doing a good bit of battlefield control, and tossing around AoE's. Warlocks, Fighters, and Paladins can do their own sort of healing with temporary hit points, regeneration, and the like. With MP, fighters can become decent pseudo strikers, with PHB2, we will see the striker barbarian playing a pseudo defender role.

There will be more wizard at-will powers in AP, and we won't even remember this conversation at that point, because we'll be drooling over all the new and cool controller stuff that beats the pants of an Invoker or Druid's at-wills.

One more note, currently Humans make very good controllers because of the 3rd at-will. Perhaps with PHB2 there will be another good controller race or two that will spice up the wizard builds.

 

[shmoo2]

There will be more wizard at-will powers in AP, and we won't even remember this conversation at that point, because we'll be drooling over all the new and cool controller stuff that beats the pants of an Invoker or Druid's at-wills.

Indeed we already saw this with the Class Acts: Wizards article. I don't know if the Illusionist powers are excerpted from AP, power but they ALL impose conditions (slowed, immobilized, prone, penalties to attack rolls) apply ongoing damage, or create zones which hinder enemies' movement & LOS or create flanking opportunities for the party.

Has it been mentioned if we'll see more illusion spells up to level 30 in AP?

 

[deleteme123456]

I'll also point out that my S. Burst doesn't completely trump Cloud of Daggers (which is only an OK power anyway)... CoD will still autokill a minion unless the minion somehow slides... but my S. Burst auto-damage is at end of turn, so the minion could move out of the zone.

With no feats to improve damage (but assuming a +1 weapon/implement), assuming an 18 stat, the PHB sburst deals near striker-level damage if you have 2 or more targets, even handicapping the wizard to a 55% chance to hit vs ranger 60% [using longsword, and we know that reflex is roughly equal to AC - 2.5, so we'll give the ranger an edge here] vs rogue 75% (dagger, combat advantage from stealth + deft strike).

I got SBurst at 9.35 for 2 targets, and approximately 14.0 for 3 targets.
Twin Strike with longsword is 9.54 [assuming both swings against your quarry]
Deft Strike 10.875

For comparison, a fighter's melee basic attack (again with a longsword, 60% to hit) is 5.7.

So I'm not nuts about adding damage to SBurst without taking some away, although I have talked to players who say they'd rather have 1d6+int and no control effect and just deal a lot of damage. (Personally I think they just want to be strikers. ) Another comment was that the enemies could easily avoid the extra damge, to which my reply is that you at least force the enemies to move, and if you're lucky/smart/teamwork, you make them take an OA or waste their entire move shifting.

 

[Aenghus]

I do think the designers were reluctant to add a lot of controller effects to the initial wizard at-wills. They were still getting use to the design space that 4e provides, and definitely wanted to nerf the wizard.

The at-wills need to be tweaked I think, rather than completely rewritten, with added controller-type flavour.

Personally, I'm ok with magic missile being a single-target basic attack. It's a very iconic wizard attack, and personally, reskinning it to hit a single target works for me. It does need something extra as a single target attack though, not sure exactly what . A one square push may be enough, along with the 2d4 and range 20.

I think ray of frost should also a basic attack.

Thunderwave is perhaps the best controlling of the at-wills, and it keys off Wis, but is difficult to use for softer-skinned wizards. Staff wizards like close spells, but don't get as much benefit from the pushing.