Mearls redesigns the Ogre Mage

[Liquidsabre]

I really like the redesign for the OM, definately would enjoy seeing a couple of these added to the head of a group of ogres, hillgiants, or even a larger band of orcs. As infilitrators they even work a little better, not like the core OM had diplomacy skills or the like. At least the new OM has the intimidation skill to make good use of while in disguise. A villanous behind-the-scenes manipulator won't need charm person to be effective (though addign it back in with invisibility at 3/day wouldn't hurt for those wanting to). Looking forward to using these in my own game, though at a CR 6. I really don't think CR 5 is nearly high enough for the dmg and powers this OM wields.

 

[Nifft]

I'm not a fan of the original, or of the re-make. How the heck does disguise self hide the fact that the critter is farkin' Large? Why not use the Alternate Form mechanics?

Alternate Form (Su): A young or older bronze dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form of Medium size or smaller as a standard action three times per day. The dragon can remain in its animal or humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.

-- N

 

[buzz]

However, someone running a low magic or low magic item campaign will have to tweak those monsters, adjust its CR, maybe beef it up in other ways, to accomodate the fact that his players won't be able to bypass it's DR.

But that person is making a fundamental change to D&D as-written. It's not the developers job to accomodate those poeple. It's their job to support the published game. And, as others have said, the more consistent they are, the easier it is to deviate in your own game.

If what you want is support for your customized, low-magic campiagn, look to the many d20/OGL publishers who are doing so.

 

[Taraxia]

The ogre-mage wasn't a great master manipulator. Any monster with sorcerer levels, as people point out, could do as well or better. He has _charm person_, not _dominate person_ -- his lousy DC 14 charm spell is good for *single interactions* with people to bluff his way around in civilization, but you're not going to be able to create a whole history for your fake identity and make a claim to the throne of the kingdom on that and the ability to vanish in a puff of smoke. The ogre-mage would be a vampire if, like a vampire, there were something he could *do* once he snuck his way into your castle, like bite you and slowly turn you into another one of himself (while keeping you just as young and beautiful as you'd ever been). Instead, he can creep up on you in bed and... blast you into a frozen corpse. How evocative.

The Japanese oni isn't meant to be a Bram-Stoker-like vampire figure, certainly. Oni roam the bounds of civilization unpredictably wreaking havoc and destruction wherever they go. (And where are you getting that this was the *flavor* of the original ogre-mage? As Mearls pointed out, you open up the MM and you see a picture of a big dude flying around with a greatsword, and you encounter these guys out in the wilderness with a bunch of regular ogres around them.)

The ogre-mage was originally written to be a smarter, cleverer ogre. That's how it's pictured in illustrations, that's the reason it wanders with parties of ogres in random encounters, that's how people picture them. Have any fantasy novels actually had the new handsome prince turn out to be an ogre-mage? Is this a common trope within fantasy?

 

[Herobizkit]

I've found that adding the Half-Fiend template to an Ogre Mage to be very satisfying. Adding the Half-Celestial template is even more so.

Your players will hate you.

 

[Klaus]

I'm not a fan of the original, or of the re-make. How the heck does disguise self hide the fact that the critter is farkin' Large? Why not use the Alternate Form mechanics?



-- N

The devil (or, in this case, the ogre-mage) is in the details.

From the new stat block:
"Deceptive Veil (Su): As per the spell disguise self, save that the ogre mage can appear to be up to one size smaller."

So the OM v.2.0 can pass off as a human, elf, dwarf, etc.

 

[occam]

I mean, if I was a PC, there could be no better news than that the evil Mastermind was an overgrown doofus who's astoundingly deep arsenal of tactics was to cast charm person a lot and run away if confronted by anything stronger than a flumph.

A 3rd-level aristocrat can be an effective evil mastermind if played the right way. Heck, in earlier editions there were plenty of 0-level NPC masterminds. It wasn't always about being able to stand up in straight-out fight. In fact, if it comes to that, I'd say your mastermind isn't doing a very good job of masterminding.

Just think about the uses to which you could put the abilities of changing form, becoming invisible, and making all kinds of friends. Played smartly over time, those are keys to the kingdom.

 

[occam]

The devil (or, in this case, the ogre-mage) is in the details.

From the new stat block:
"Deceptive Veil (Su): As per the spell disguise self, save that the ogre mage can appear to be up to one size smaller."

So the OM v.2.0 can pass off as a human, elf, dwarf, etc.

Yeah, I didn't really see the point of that change. Maybe Mike forgot about the polymorph errata, but the ogre mage already has the ability to change shape into any Small, Medium, or Large humanoid or giant.

 

[Pants]

Hear, hear! There are a lot of interesting things ogre magi can do with those low-level abilities that don't involve using them directly against CR-appropriate PC parties. Take a good look at the ogre mage writeup in the MM; this is not a creature sitting in a cave waiting for some adventurers to blunder in and clobber it. An ogre mage is actively involved in society, using abilities like charm, sleep, and polymorph (or change shape in the errata) to further his nefarious ends among the masses of weak and stupid humanoids surrounding him. Sure, they aren't much use against a party of 8th-level characters; that's what the cone of cold and the escape abilities are for, as well as a coterie of ogre allies and other combat brutes.

The problem with the MM Ogre Mage, as I see it, is that it's just not built well.

Many people bring up good points about monster abilities being pared down because they 'aren't useful in combat.' That's a foolish idea. A well designed monster has abilities that can strengthen its flavor and its use in combat.

The Ogre Mage, for example, has the sleep spell-like ability. Now, for a devious creature that relies far more on subtlety, manipulation, and guile this is perfect. Same for charm person. The problem with these is, that those chosen abilities are completely useless in combat. Sure, they may work on mooks during combats that the PC's will never see, but against a CR 8 (or a CR 6 party?) they're useless. Sleep won't affect anyone in a level 6 party and charm person only works on humanoids, which is fine if Ogre Mages are only manipulating humanoids, but I've always seen them as manipulating anything.

These abilities just don't work and add in the Ogre Mage's horrible staying power and it's general one-cone-of-cold-poniness and it ends up being a horribly designed creature.

Swap out sleep for deep slumber or add an addendum in the SLA for removing the HD limit and swap out charm monster for the piddly charm person. Change the rest of the monster to the redesigned version (maybe up the CR by 1) and voila, a better version that doesn't dump on the flavor of the critter, like the current redesigned version and the old versions did.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

It's kinda funny, isn't it...that "useless" 1st level Charm spell used to hold a person of average intelligence for at least 3 weeks if they didn't manage their saving throw the first time, and longer if subsequent saves were failed. With 3E and its "back to the dungeon" design, the duration was reduced to 1 hour/level, which means less than 5 days for a 20th level caster. So from being able to hold sway over the "normal" part of the population for weeks and months with a measly 1st level spell, or ingratiating itself into any court, building a web of friends and allies, an Ogre Mage has been reduced to trying to sway a PC or an NPC over to his side for 9 hours.

The "useless" 1st level Sleep spell used to be a holy terror for NPCs who, except for the few important ones, simply had no "NPC class levels", or HD higher than 1/2 or 1, which meant 4 to 8 commoners simply fell to sleep (for 5 minutes per level, by the way, not the 1 minute/level pseudo-combat spell it is in 3E). With one swoop, an Ogre Mage was able to send the whole militia of a village to sleep and butcher them where they stood, while the villagers had to watch, while today he can only blow off his Cone of Cold before running from the veteran warriors or the high-level commoners with pitchforks.

So yeah, of course, if you power down the abilities of a monster due to the new rules, and then you don't recompense said monster for the loss of power, it will look stupid. Maybe it would be a recommendable exercise to look at why the monsters in the 3E MM are weaker, compared to their former selves, before going ahead and complaining that they are totally useless and that it's unfathomable what reasons there were for their creation as they stand. In many cases, the MM1 monsters were taken from their earlier-edition counterparts modified only slightly, while the rules for the powers were changed drastically to focus more on rounds-long combat and on de-escalation of long-term nasty sideeffects.

That "new" Ogre Mage would make a great new monster, as a magically endowed Ogre leader, but the "old" Ogre mage was a completely different beast. If you want to give the Ogre Mage a semblance of his old power back, grant it something like Greater Sleep from The Book of Eldritch Might, that puts 4d6 HD to sleep and is capped at 10 HD creatures, and grant it Charm Monster for the longer spell duration. That way, it definitely is worth its CR of 8 and can go back being a manipulative and scary opponent for the PCs as well as a terror of the countryside.

Edit: and my apologies to Pants for not reading his post, where he brings up a few of my points and offers a similar solution. That's what happens when you click the "New Answer" button too fast.