Mearls redesigns the Ogre Mage

[James Heard]

My main complaint with Mearl's rewrite is that the old flying ability seems out of place on the new monster I think. I'm not even certain I like the Sneak Attack ability on it. The spell-like ability changes make a lot of sense, but I think I'd just go for allowing Rogue levels for Sneak Attack, Sorcerer levels for getting a Cone of Cold, etc.

I think that to reflect the old version's charm/darkness abilities I'd just give the sucker an aura that caused him to be harder to hit and the PCs to have trouble using their abilities of some sort. Then he'd still have the "plop down in the middle of combat" fright coming out of invisibility, but he'd also gain an advantage that would add to his allies as well and promote his new role as "head of the ogre ninja nation" or what not.

Of course, for the reasoning of ditching the flying I'd also kill the longbow action entirely too. I'm also not entirely sure what sort of aura I'd give the thing that would seem proper.

*shrug* I like the articles, because the commentary is very nice.

 

[Roman]

I did not know that ogres are from Japanese mythology. Instead, I associated them with Hungarians in some manner and recall reading something to that effect.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

The archetypical ogre that inspired the D&D monster most likely has its roots in the french respectively english expressions for a "man-eating brutish giant".

The "ogre magus" most likely was an attempt to emulate the oriental magical (and also man-eating, hence "ogre") oni with the tools AD&D offered at that point.

 

[philreed]

Something to keep in mind while reading these revised monsters is this quote from 30 Years of Adventure:

Zeb's "Game Wizards" column in Dragon number 118, for example, the infamous "Who Dies?" essay, was purposefully inflammatory. No one had any intention of doing away with the core classes. His remarks had their intended effect, however, in that everyone started talking about the proposed revisions . . .

 

[Soel]

Try adding 6 levels of beguiler (PH II) to an ogre mage (+3 CR for 6 non-associated class levels, IIRC) and compare that to the old CR 8 ogre mage. I think it makes for a satisfying trickster/manipulator type.

A few people have said the flavor is gone. I'm curious about that. If you replaced the stat block in the MM with the revised stat block, but kept everything else the same, what flavor is lost?

Nice idea about the beguiler levels.

I, too am curious about the "flavor" that supposedly existed with the ogre mage. Everything it had seemed random. Cone of Cold is flavor?

I think some folks just believe you're out to kill sacred cows. I also think that perhaps, this reimagining wasn't radical enough. Still leaves me feeling a little cold. The trickster/beguiler bits are at least big steps in the right direction.

Btw, I thoroughly enjoy the design articles ya'll have been doing lately. Really generates some good discussion and insight.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

One thing that strikes me as a bit counterproductive, at least if you want an easy game that can be "run out of the box", is the argument that a monster should/can be statted up with class levels to generate an intended effect/flavour. Of course, given the modular attitude of D&D, it's easy to do so...if you really know the system. If you're a beginner, digging through a few core books, trying to grasp the concept of adding levels to a monster for different effects, and individualizing monsters that way is not so easily digested as simply grabbing the MM, opening it and using a monster as it is presented. That's why it is an advantage if the monsters come complete with their own special effects instead of just the basic frame with the advice to tack on class levels as needed.

I mean, with the right combination of templates, classes and prestige classes, you could probably turn an awakened lizard into a dragon by now.

 

[Ripzerai]

I'm not necessarily taking sides here - I just observed that the abilities Gygax et al gave the ogre mage were similar to the grab-bag of abilities the vampire got - charm, turn into mist, fly, the ability to pass among humans (which isn't supernatural for a vampire). This seems to be the pattern behind the ogre mage's abilities, if there is one at all.

I'm reluctant to take the argument further than that, as an ogre mage is certainly still capable of being a "master manipulator" without using charm (which, it's true, isn't that great an ability anyway, but it's great for subtle action against low-level NPCs). I would have compensated for its loss by substantially raising its base charisma, however.

 

[Pants]

I, too am curious about the "flavor" that supposedly existed with the ogre mage. Everything it had seemed random. Cone of Cold is flavor?

Meh, the only reason I like the Cone of Cold thing is because I've hosed so many players over the years with just that spell... right before the remaining PC's demolish the ogre mage.

 

[Henrix]

It feels like I'm quoting someone, or a lot of people, earlier in this thread, when I'll say that the MM version surely needs rethinking, but that the new MM Mike Mearls version lacks all flavour and subtility.

I'd rather see an Ogre Mage that was more magical than a sneaky warrior. An intelligent spellcasting ogre, more or less.
Say that they are born with sorcerer-like spellcasting abilities, and give them a standard array of spells. But make them so that they can have different spells, if the DM wants, in order to surprise the players.


Besides, Disguise Self is a real bad option for the Ogre Mages shapechanging. One of the main ideas seem to be that it should be able to disguise itself as a human (or even halfling).
Now take your average Ogre Mage, cast an illusion on him so that he appears to be smaller, and try to get him into an ordinary house. Or sit on a chair.

 

[Endur]

CR8 Ogre Warlock

Ogre CR 3 +4 hit dice (giant advancement) CR 4
8 nonassociated Warlock levels CR 8

Hit Dice: 8d8 + 8d6 + con bonus x8
Warlock Invocations (3 least, 2 lesser):
Least: Hideous Blow, Frightful Blast, Darkness
Lesser: Fell Flight, Walk Unseen

If you were willing to have a more powerful Ogre Mage, with 11 Warlock levels you could have a cone of cold (Eldritch Cone, Hellrime Blast) every round.