Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
Nice power!
Mearls redesigns the Ogre Mage
- Thread starter cthulhu_duck
- Start date
Geron Raveneye
Explorer
It's definitely a step up from the Charm Person it is confined to at the moment..I'd actually love to see it being added to the current version, not just the remade one.
I think I finally cornered what bothered me about the angle the ogre mage was tackled from for redesign...it was remade under the premises of how it will fare/behave in direct combat, and was compared to it's fellow CR 8 monsters in that light as well. In a nutshell, it was treated purely as a dungeon combat encounter. And I can't help it but think that this angle is not really the best one from where to look, at least not where D&D is concerned.
The fact is that lots of the monsters that are in the game from day 1 were not meant as simple "dungeon fodder", even if they have been treated like that very often, but were/are supposed to be bigger challenges in the greater picture of a campaign, using their strengths in other fields than direct combat because that is where they lack, while they excel in manipulation, stealth and trickery.
Looking at the ogre mage, that is one creature that is not just cut out for a certain cultural background (asian, as it was drawn from there), but also for a lot of careful investigation and intrigue. I see it infiltrating a rural court, charming its way into the heart of the nobles, or subjugating a few outlying villages. Nobody notices until a few adventurers either come along on their way elsewhere, or are sent because the tithes are dropping. Nothing seems amiss, and they have to a) find out who the culprit is and b) get through a heap of charmed nobles and villagers to get to their final confrontation with the Ogre Mage, who will do his outmost to thwart them, because if it comes to a direct combat, he will fare badly and will have to run.
I understand that the R&D team of WotC has to look at some primary focus for the game to run towards, but I'd say it's a bit thoughtless of campaign worlds like Forgotten Realms and Eberron, both teeming with rich details and plenty of non-combat interactions, to go and judge a monster 90% by it's combat ability and behaviour. Some monsters are simply no dungeon fodder, and should be treated as greater background challenges instead. Vampires, dopplegangers, mind flayers, and yes, the ogre mage, are much more efficient when NOT facing a group of adventurers in direct combat only, but meet them on their own terms. Same reason why the CR rating is only of vague value...it also deals with direct combat, mostly. And I dare say getting at an ogre mage who has entrenched himself in a rural court and the adjacent village is a much bigger challenge than simply meeting one in a dungeon and hack it to pieces.
In essence, please widen the focus of how you look at monsters a little...if the R&D policy of WotC allows it, of course. Reducing all to the dungeon is not a healthy direction for D&D, a game that has become known for colorful and rich campaign settings and adventures that also challenge a player's wit and guile, and not just his strategic talent, even if its roots were in tactical wargaming.
I think I finally cornered what bothered me about the angle the ogre mage was tackled from for redesign...it was remade under the premises of how it will fare/behave in direct combat, and was compared to it's fellow CR 8 monsters in that light as well. In a nutshell, it was treated purely as a dungeon combat encounter. And I can't help it but think that this angle is not really the best one from where to look, at least not where D&D is concerned.
The fact is that lots of the monsters that are in the game from day 1 were not meant as simple "dungeon fodder", even if they have been treated like that very often, but were/are supposed to be bigger challenges in the greater picture of a campaign, using their strengths in other fields than direct combat because that is where they lack, while they excel in manipulation, stealth and trickery.
Looking at the ogre mage, that is one creature that is not just cut out for a certain cultural background (asian, as it was drawn from there), but also for a lot of careful investigation and intrigue. I see it infiltrating a rural court, charming its way into the heart of the nobles, or subjugating a few outlying villages. Nobody notices until a few adventurers either come along on their way elsewhere, or are sent because the tithes are dropping. Nothing seems amiss, and they have to a) find out who the culprit is and b) get through a heap of charmed nobles and villagers to get to their final confrontation with the Ogre Mage, who will do his outmost to thwart them, because if it comes to a direct combat, he will fare badly and will have to run.
I understand that the R&D team of WotC has to look at some primary focus for the game to run towards, but I'd say it's a bit thoughtless of campaign worlds like Forgotten Realms and Eberron, both teeming with rich details and plenty of non-combat interactions, to go and judge a monster 90% by it's combat ability and behaviour. Some monsters are simply no dungeon fodder, and should be treated as greater background challenges instead. Vampires, dopplegangers, mind flayers, and yes, the ogre mage, are much more efficient when NOT facing a group of adventurers in direct combat only, but meet them on their own terms. Same reason why the CR rating is only of vague value...it also deals with direct combat, mostly. And I dare say getting at an ogre mage who has entrenched himself in a rural court and the adjacent village is a much bigger challenge than simply meeting one in a dungeon and hack it to pieces.
In essence, please widen the focus of how you look at monsters a little...if the R&D policy of WotC allows it, of course. Reducing all to the dungeon is not a healthy direction for D&D, a game that has become known for colorful and rich campaign settings and adventures that also challenge a player's wit and guile, and not just his strategic talent, even if its roots were in tactical wargaming.
Klaus
First Post
That's a neat power, Mike. But instead of tying it to charm person, I'd simply state that a humanoid that fails its saving throw has a Helpful attitude towards the ogre mage (or its current guise) for 1 month, and that a break enchantment or remove curse spell removes this effect.mearls said:
By tying it to charm person, you tie to to any future changes of charm person. But by giving it its own effect description, it stands on its own, rules-wise.
Geron Raveneye
Explorer
Not to be nitpicky or anything, and you're certainly right that tieing it to Charm Person makes it vulnerable to future changes to that spell (which already powered the Ogre Mage down from earlier editions after all), but tieing it to an in-game definition of an attitude most likely offers a similar vulnerability. Simply stating that the power makes the victing regard the Ogre Mage as a trusted friend and ally might be more helpful in that regard. 
Cheiromancer
Adventurer
mearls said:
DC 35!? That's pretty high, doncha think? And what happens if someone makes the check? Do you tell them that an ogre mage is trying to charm them, or do you just say there is some kind of magical influence at work? (Which may be a ring of human influence, or a philtre of glibness- heck, even a cloak of charisma).
What is "equal to 1d4 + its Charisma modifier"? The number of inhabitants in any settlement? Which is a trifle odd- a few hours in a tavern, barbershop should dramatically increase the number. Or is it the number of settlements where the OM has substantial influence?
The skill used for making friends is normally Diplomacy, I think. Giving the OM a substantial bonus to non-combat diplomacy and bluff checks should be enough to make friendly with most nearby neighbors.
6pakofdwarves
First Post
My thoughts are the same on this. I would just give it a +10 racial bonus to Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Bluff. I think that in and of itself would make it a good "Mastermind" villain. No need to ensorcel the population when you can win friends and influence people naturally.
Now on the redesign, I really like it. A very tricksy ogre indeed!
Kid Charlemagne
I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
Cheiromancer said:
No, the number of people the Ogre Mage controls in any given settlement. And the DC 35 to notice a subtle magical effect seems fair to me. It doesn't affect saving throws, just the chance to notice something is up.
I like the ability, myself. Quite a bit.
bowbe
First Post
Most people have mentioned the "useless" sleep spell ability and the "useless" sleep spell in general.
The traditional sleep spell became useless with 3.0 and even more useless with 3.5.
Instead of dropping it from a monster why not concentrate on making some of the iconic spells not suck.
P.S. for haters who think its all about throwbacks to "sacred cows," remember that a lot of where D&D draws its flavor is from the use of those same icons in a game to give players a similar yet unique set of experiences across many generations of D&D gamers. 3.0 developers knew this, which is why they used "iconic characters" to describe character classes and kept that theme throughout the core rulebooks.
3.5 ed and this quasi 4th ed developmental stuff seems to ignore those iconic elements, exchanging them for a more mechanical approach.
Didn't care for the 3.x version of the Ogre Mage because as a lot of people pointed out it was a meat-sack with a bammy spell and nothing else really going for it. Don't care much for the "developmental redesign" either.
Iconically speaking, the classic ogre mage made a great villian or boss. Instead of straightjacketing it to the CR 8 for obscure reasons, or wimping it down based on art that will undoubtably not survive a rules revision... why not make it tougher instead?
Ogre Mages should be distinct from regular ogres in the way that Barghests are/were distinct from goblins. Barghests grew stronger and gained more powers as they gained hit dice from eating souls. Ogre Mages could have been designed on a similar thesis:
That ogre mages are a different and unique creature, that they have innate magical powers based on their # of hit dice, and that they develop more powerful magical and sorcerous effects as they "grow up".
A precedent already exists for this with elementals so it isn't a stretch to use existing rules sets to effect a variety of ogre mage powers (hell even add some new ones as it gains powers). Thus a low 2 hd ogre mage has the sleep spell power (or one written to work) and a higher hit dice ogre mage (like 7 hd) gains the cone of cold. Maybe at higher HD it would gain Charm Monster or Dominate to create a greater challenge for higher level characters and offer a re-usability factor. Flavor text could be altered slightly to reflect its magical nature, its other worldliness (I would think of considering it a native outsider) and offer a cultural naunce to the brute to round it out.
Case
P.S.
Wizbang made a good point in the rust monster development. On a different board I applied the rules for damaging items and item hardness/hit points to a rust effect. Thanks for the idea Wiz because it works pretty well and uses the existing rules! Go you!
The traditional sleep spell became useless with 3.0 and even more useless with 3.5.
Instead of dropping it from a monster why not concentrate on making some of the iconic spells not suck.
P.S. for haters who think its all about throwbacks to "sacred cows," remember that a lot of where D&D draws its flavor is from the use of those same icons in a game to give players a similar yet unique set of experiences across many generations of D&D gamers. 3.0 developers knew this, which is why they used "iconic characters" to describe character classes and kept that theme throughout the core rulebooks.
3.5 ed and this quasi 4th ed developmental stuff seems to ignore those iconic elements, exchanging them for a more mechanical approach.
Didn't care for the 3.x version of the Ogre Mage because as a lot of people pointed out it was a meat-sack with a bammy spell and nothing else really going for it. Don't care much for the "developmental redesign" either.
Iconically speaking, the classic ogre mage made a great villian or boss. Instead of straightjacketing it to the CR 8 for obscure reasons, or wimping it down based on art that will undoubtably not survive a rules revision... why not make it tougher instead?
Ogre Mages should be distinct from regular ogres in the way that Barghests are/were distinct from goblins. Barghests grew stronger and gained more powers as they gained hit dice from eating souls. Ogre Mages could have been designed on a similar thesis:
That ogre mages are a different and unique creature, that they have innate magical powers based on their # of hit dice, and that they develop more powerful magical and sorcerous effects as they "grow up".
A precedent already exists for this with elementals so it isn't a stretch to use existing rules sets to effect a variety of ogre mage powers (hell even add some new ones as it gains powers). Thus a low 2 hd ogre mage has the sleep spell power (or one written to work) and a higher hit dice ogre mage (like 7 hd) gains the cone of cold. Maybe at higher HD it would gain Charm Monster or Dominate to create a greater challenge for higher level characters and offer a re-usability factor. Flavor text could be altered slightly to reflect its magical nature, its other worldliness (I would think of considering it a native outsider) and offer a cultural naunce to the brute to round it out.
Case
P.S.
Wizbang made a good point in the rust monster development. On a different board I applied the rules for damaging items and item hardness/hit points to a rust effect. Thanks for the idea Wiz because it works pretty well and uses the existing rules! Go you!
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