Mearls redesigns the Ogre Mage

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Something to keep in mind while reading these revised monsters is this quote from 30 Years of Adventure:

I hadn't thought that it took special effort to get people to talk about 4E.

 

[Mark CMG]

I hadn't thought that it took special effort to get people to talk about 4E.

The trick being to get them to talk about 4E without mentioning 4E.

 

[Isbo]

I wonder if the flavor thing has anything to do with the difference between 3.0 and other editions of D&D. 3.0 and 3.5 are modular in a profound way--you can start out with one creature and tweak it in a number of ways without leaving the rules. You can give it class levels, templates, more HD, alter its feat selection, and so on. This has also been what made possible the 'smooth' introduction of monsters as PC's. It's why you can say "oh, you want that color? Just add a few levels of beguiler or sorcerer or..." You make the color in 3.0.

In older versions of the game, this modularity did not exist. To get a monster that was an ogre plus magical powers, you had to create new monsters or carefully revise an old one. The monster's color was wired directly into its description. Altering a 2.0 monster was, in fact, a big deal. It was no longer the same monster. Altering a 3.x monster is, well, just part of playing the game.

I honestly feel like 3.x has too many monsters when it could really effectively work with a few dozen core types modified with templates and class levels. I loved the monsters that came advanced, templated, and class leveled in the MM. We don't need a new monsters, we need better advice of how to exploit that modularity.

Heck, I would really love it if monsters were even more modular, if monster creation were more modular, if it were a few core types with power lists, feat sugestions, and so on. If you could create a monster like you could create a character--just add description and go. Settings, of course, would have iconic monsters, but those would just be particularly well-designed exemplars...but I'm a bigtime homebrewer at heart

 

[Nifft]

I really like the idea of "casts as a level X caster" so that it's easy to beef up a monster by adding associated class levels. For example, if an Ogre-Mage had 10 Giant HD and cast as a 6th level something (Sorcerer, Beguiler, Binder, Warlock, whatever) then it would be a nice CR 8 encounter, and would have obvious potential for custimization / enhancement.

-- N

 

[frankthedm]

and what are Associated Classes? I noticed that in the MM4 and can't find what they say they are anywhere.

Associated classes are classes that work really well with a monster that inceases it's CR 1 for one. Non Associated classes are classes that don't help a monster enough and add only 1/2 a CR per class level.

A minotaur barbarian 4 is a CR 8 because ever level of barbarian is adding on plenty of potential for each of the rounds the minotaur will live in combat with PCs.
A minotaur Sorcerer 4 is a CR 6 because each level of sorcerer adds much less potential for each of the rounds the minotaur will live in combat with PCs.

ADDING CLASS LEVELS
If you are advancing a monster by adding player character class levels, decide if the class levels directly improve the monster’s existing capabilities.

When adding class levels to a creature, you should give it typical ability scores appropriate for that class. Most creatures are built using the standard array of ability scores: 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, adjusted by racial modifiers. If you give a creature a PC class use the elite array of ability scores before racial adjustments: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. Creatures with NPC classes use the nonelite array of 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8.

Associated Class Levels
Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1.

Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability.

Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage.

A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

Nonassociated Class Levels
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The trick being to get them to talk about 4E without mentioning 4E.

Yeah, like there's any threads around here that people don't mention 4E in anyway ...

 

[Nifft]

My main complaint with Mearl's rewrite is that the old flying ability seems out of place on the new monster I think.

From what I've seen of Asian mythos, superior jumping would do the trick. Also, it's cool.

he'd still have the "plop down in the middle of combat" fright coming out of invisibility

Hmm... jumping could do this, too. Particularly if he could un-transform from an alternate (humanoid) form back to his regular giant form as a swift action.

Hmm... a variant is forming.

-- N

 

[occam]

It's kinda funny, isn't it...that "useless" 1st level Charm spell used to hold a person of average intelligence for at least 3 weeks if they didn't manage their saving throw the first time, and longer if subsequent saves were failed. With 3E and its "back to the dungeon" design, the duration was reduced to 1 hour/level, which means less than 5 days for a 20th level caster. So from being able to hold sway over the "normal" part of the population for weeks and months with a measly 1st level spell, or ingratiating itself into any court, building a web of friends and allies, an Ogre Mage has been reduced to trying to sway a PC or an NPC over to his side for 9 hours.

The "useless" 1st level Sleep spell used to be a holy terror for NPCs who, except for the few important ones, simply had no "NPC class levels", or HD higher than 1/2 or 1, which meant 4 to 8 commoners simply fell to sleep (for 5 minutes per level, by the way, not the 1 minute/level pseudo-combat spell it is in 3E). With one swoop, an Ogre Mage was able to send the whole militia of a village to sleep and butcher them where they stood, while the villagers had to watch, while today he can only blow off his Cone of Cold before running from the veteran warriors or the high-level commoners with pitchforks.

So yeah, of course, if you power down the abilities of a monster due to the new rules, and then you don't recompense said monster for the loss of power, it will look stupid.

Excellent points.

 

[occam]

Something to keep in mind while reading these revised monsters is this quote from 30 Years of Adventure:

Hee hee. Interesting observation.

 

[mearls]

Rip summed it nicely, so I don't feel the need to repeat it. Basically, you turned the O-M into another brute melee monster (with SLAs) instead of the "master manipulator" it used to be. We shouldn't have to add class levels (from a non-core book to boot) to make the creature work in its original role.

Cool. Thanks for the answer.

Along those lines, what do people think of a power like this added to a monster like the ogre mage to get the manipulator feel:

Mesmeric Whispers (Su): If an ogre mage talks with a creature for at least 5 minutes, the creature must make a Will save (DC 10 + half OM's HD + the OM's Charisma modifier) or be affected as if by charm person for one month. The ogre mage's attempt to control a target requires a DC 35 Spellcraft check to notice. A target that succeeds at its save may make a Spellcraft check. Otherwise, it fails to notice the attempt. An ogre mage may attempt to use this ability against a specific creature once per day, and can target only one creature at a time.
A creature swayed by this ability responds in a friendly manner to whatever form the ogre mage adopted when the target failed its save.
As a rule of thumb, an ogre mage controls inhabitants of any settlement within a day's journey of its lair equal to 1d4 + its Charisma modifier. These folk are typically merchants, guardsmen (particularly officers), and politicians. The ogre mage uses these allies to establish safe houses, buy and sell goods, and so forth.