Mearls redesigns the Ogre Mage

[Nifft]

That ogre mages are a different and unique creature, that they have innate magical powers based on their # of hit dice, and that they develop more powerful magical and sorcerous effects as they "grow up".

To me, this sounds like "casts as a class", and then you add some class levels on.

Yay 3e monsters with levels!

-- N

 

[Geron Raveneye]

To me, this rather more sounds like the 10-level approach to the Ogre Mage that Savage Species tried.

 

[Shazman]

How would you design the Oni?

As I think the MM Ogremage is PoS, and I don't get to run or play in OA all that much... I replace Ogremages with... Ogre Sorcerers! Ogre (CR 3) + Sorc 5 = CR 8, right?

In an edition where we have the spontaneous caster, we don't need to fall back on oldskool versions of monsters that were handed random spell-like abilities to make them interesting. And if you want to do it OA, use the Wu Jen.

Actually, it's more like a CR5 since sorcerer is definitely a non-associated class for ogres.

 

[Knight Otu]

Actually, it's more like a CR5 since sorcerer is definitely a non-associated class for ogres.

Until you go and increase the CR for the Charisma increase you need to add in to make it an efficient ogre sorcerer.

Mike, if you're reading this, is there a chance to add sidebars to the end of the articles that show what changed? No need to go super detailed on it, just stuff like "Added +1d6 sneak attack," "dropped Spell Resistance" or "Re-allocated skill points to Hide and Move Silently" or "Changed rust ability (see text for details)." I think that would help as an overview.

 

[bowbe]

To me, this sounds like "casts as a class", and then you add some class levels on.

Yay 3e monsters with levels!

Agreed, however sometimes it's nice for a monster to just be a monster and have monster stats. I get all the goodies of monster levels and so on... just saying that I think thats the approach that best suits an Ogre Mage... A basic "ogre mage" with a few variants for things it gains as it "levels up" template wise I guess.

Point being there are tons of alternatives that already exist for humanoid critters, giants, and so on. Likewise there are genies that have examples given of "noble" classed stats amongst them. To me a Ogre Mage is more of a genie outsider type race than an ogre type race. Thus the talk about the extra class levels and so on makes sense.

I just felt that a simple baseline (perhaps low) CR low HD version of the Ogre mage would be the way to go so that you could easily tack on whatever character classes make it your "style" of Ogre mage. I'm really getting more and more inclined to feel that way with several sorts of humanoid monsters and outsiders as I continue to play into my 6th year of 3.x

Racial benefits that grow as the monster levels up or increases based on its natural size and hit dice (i.e. monster classes) work nicely into the existing framework. If your going to re-work the monsters, I guess I feel that Re-working the monsters to fit a simplified baseline starting "monster package" works better for everyone and would in my mind be the development design mode to take.

It helps a GM create the monster they want from a simple setup, and gives players who get off on playing monsters an easier time of it than waiting around for everyone else to catch up before they get to level one time. Helps play balance because you don't have a monster PC thats 4 times stronger than everyone else to start with, but then becomes a burden at higher levels because they dont have all the class features everyone else has.

I guess what I am getting at is perhaps every humanoid/humanoid outsider, giant and so on should be a template or "race" as described in various books rather than a "monster" as statted in the monster manual. Anyhow, gonna fiddle a bit with some of this stuff and see what happens.

Case

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think I finally cornered what bothered me about the angle the ogre mage was tackled from for redesign...it was remade under the premises of how it will fare/behave in direct combat, and was compared to it's fellow CR 8 monsters in that light as well. In a nutshell, it was treated purely as a dungeon combat encounter. And I can't help it but think that this angle is not really the best one from where to look, at least not where D&D is concerned.

Since the CR system determines how much XP characters get from defeating an NPC, typically in combat, making sure a creature works at its stated CR is a pretty core concern. Adding non-combat abilities is cool, but the basic CR should let a DM know whether, in a head to head fight, a monster is going to wipe the floor with his party, be a good challenge, or be too easy.

Including additional non-combat abilities (which Mearls is doing in this thread) is great, but that's not what the CR system is for.

 

[Obergnom]

Well,

one small thing I migh contribute to this threat. I used two of the redesigned Ogre Mages in an Encounter tonight (6 Ogres, a Hill Giant and 2 Ogre Mages), being part of an army of giants led by an Eldritch Giants (All very Against the Giants like)

The Ogre Mages work great in an encounter, both of them were able to flee afterwards, so they will be reoccuring, they did pretty good damage using Sneak attack, all the flying around was rather nice, the Lightning Bolts were not that usefull though. (The Party was spread between 7th and 9th Level)

I have used Ogre Mages in 3.x before, an the new ones are much more usable, without giving out XP for free, if you do not have that much time to prepare for an encounter, which was true tonight. If I want one of those as a Boss Monster I would give it Class Levels (I nearly allways do so) and if it was a "true" MM entry I would expect there was a version closer to the original, by adding appropiate levels (Beguiler seems to be the way to go)

... so, yea, I really like this redesign, but I liked the Rust Monster to, and I even like the new Monster Format in MM4... maybe thats what happens when you play AE for to long

 

[FireLance]

I've always liked the Warcraft take on ogre magi that they are originally normal ogres who subsequently gained magical powers. In Warcraft II, the spirits of dead orcish warlocks were infused into normal ogres at the Altars of Storms. In D&D, perhaps ogres could become ogre magi by going through some vile ritual like consuming the still-beating hearts of thirteen humanoids with strong ties to magic, such as elves or gnomes.

Of course, since the idea of one creature "evolving" into another, stronger version is found in Pokemon, this runs the risk that people who don't like this will call them "pokemagi".

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Since the CR system determines how much XP characters get from defeating an NPC, typically in combat, making sure a creature works at its stated CR is a pretty core concern. Adding non-combat abilities is cool, but the basic CR should let a DM know whether, in a head to head fight, a monster is going to wipe the floor with his party, be a good challenge, or be too easy.

Including additional non-combat abilities (which Mearls is doing in this thread) is great, but that's not what the CR system is for.

"Typically in combat" is the operative term, isn't it? I think I did state that, if you play an Ogre Mage to its strengths instead of to its weaknesses, it can be a CR 8 "encounter". It simply is no dungeon fodder. It is this untypical kind of challenge that you can't hack at with your sword right away. It has allies, some of them in high places, it looks like a perfectly normal person, it can, with a bit of luck, even charm your group fighter at the tavern while you're asking around for rumors about it. It's hard to track, hard to corner, and hard to finish off eventually.

Or course, if CR is determined exclusively as a measure of how a monster stacks up in direct combat when met in a 10'x10' room deeply underground, a few monsters in the MM need to be redesigned. But I doubt that this kind of too narrow focus would do a service to D&D. Having some kind of baseline is one thing...hammering every deviation down to it is another.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Or course, if CR is determined exclusively as a measure of how a monster stacks up in direct combat when met in a 10'x10' room deeply underground, a few monsters in the MM need to be redesigned.

Which brings us back to the original post in this thread, since that's exactly what Mearls is doing, for exactly that reason, among others.

The baseline has to be solid, and then DMs are more empowered to play around with NPCs, because they know the information they're given is more reliable than it is currently.