Mearls: The core of D&D

[Ultimatecalibur]

If the fighter can't harm the creature, how does he stop it wandering past him to get at the people who can? (And probably coming back to finish him off later).

In a world of 5' wide doorways and 10' wide corridors standing in the way usually does it.

 

[Hussar]

Oh, Hussar. Your willingness to reduce complex mechanical issues down to over-simplified absurdities in order to find something that you think contradicts them never ceases to amuse me.

Snort.

I read your blog post. You are claiming that because PC's in 4e have a limited number of surges per day (or extended rest period to be exact) then the 15 minute adventuring day is hard coded into the rules. That the existence of things like Cure Light Wounds wands in 3e mean that it's a "soft" limit on how long the adventuring party can continue during the day.

This is ludicrous.

1. Virtually every class can generate temporary hit points during combat, generally as either an encounter or even at will ability. There are also numerous magic items which do the same.

2. There is at least one ritual I know of that allows PC's to give unspent surges to other PC's.

3. Pretty much every leader class gives bonuses to healing on surges, thus even further extending the day.

4. Several classes gain abilities to heal that do not expend surges. Clerics gain Cure X dailies, fighters have stances that grant regeneration just to name two.

That's just off the top of my head. Yup, you're right. Classes have a hard limit of how many surges they get per day. That's true. But, as far as healing goes, that's just the tip of the iceburg.

Pointing to the limit of healing surges per day and then claiming that 4e failed to achieve design goals is laughable.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In a world of 5' wide doorways and 10' wide corridors standing in the way usually does it.

1) Even in 1Ed, ghosts could pass through solid matter due to being ethereal- he could walk right at the Wizard through the Fighter...or juke to the side and disappear, coming at the Mage from behind, below, above, etc.

2) Even if they couldn't, the ghost could just magic jar the Fighter and use him to attack the Mage.

 

[billd91]

I read your blog post. You are claiming that because PC's in 4e have a limited number of surges per day (or extended rest period to be exact) then the 15 minute adventuring day is hard coded into the rules. That the existence of things like Cure Light Wounds wands in 3e mean that it's a "soft" limit on how long the adventuring party can continue during the day.

This is ludicrous.

<snip>
That's just off the top of my head. Yup, you're right. Classes have a hard limit of how many surges they get per day. That's true. But, as far as healing goes, that's just the tip of the iceburg.

Pointing to the limit of healing surges per day and then claiming that 4e failed to achieve design goals is laughable.

A few dailies here and there compared to functionally unlimited healing? Yeah, I've got to go with the Alexandrian blog on that one. And he's not the only one who made that observation. It's come up here from players on a number of occasions.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

1) Even in 1Ed, ghosts could pass through solid matter due to being ethereal- he could walk right at the Wizard through the Fighter...or juke to the side and disappear, coming at the Mage from behind, below, above, etc.

2) Even if they couldn't, the ghost could just magic jar the Fighter and use him to attack the Mage.

Would a Fighter having a +1 weapon change these tactics? Not really.

This whole sub-argument about the tactics to use against weapon immune monsters is really missing the point I was making pages ago. The point was that it is easier to run a magic-itemless game in pre-3.X than 4th. The DM just needs to not use those monsters that require +x or greater weapons to harm.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Would a Fighter having a +1 weapon change these tactics? Not really.

Probably not, but my point was that even in 1Ed, there were creatures that any melee-only damaging PC required magic items to combat.

The point was that it is easier to run a magic-itemless game in pre-3.X than 4th. The DM just needs to not use those monsters that require +x or greater weapons to harm.

Nonsense- in ANY edition, all the DM has to do is not use creatures the PCs can't hit without magic weapons. The games did not excise DM's discretion.

 

[Doug McCrae]

The point was that it is easier to run a magic-itemless game in pre-3.X than 4th.

I would have to question that. Magic items are a big part of the game, pre-3e. It would almost be like playing the game without monsters, or spells, or dungeons. Sure, it can be done, but the loss will be felt strongly.

Magic items serve a number of significant functions in OD&D, B/X and 1e. They are a separate, and probably equally important, play driver and reward mechanism, the others being gold and xp. Equipment, particularly magic equipment, is one of the few mechanical means for differentiating between characters of the same class. In the form of potions, wands and other limited use items they are an important type of resource management.

In 2e and in many of the classic modules, magic items frequently perform the role of macguffin.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

Probably not, but my point was that even in 1Ed, there were creatures that any melee-only damaging PC required magic items to combat.

I never argued with that. I was just disagreeing with you that having magic items or running away were the only ways for a group of adventures to deal with the those threats.

Nonsense- in ANY edition, all the DM has to do is not use creatures the PCs can't hit without magic weapons. The games did not excise DM's discretion.

I never said the games did that. I said that pre-3.X editions of D&D were easier to run magic-itemless than 4th edition.

In pre-3.X all you have to do to run a magic-itemless game is not hand out magic items and not use weapon immune creatures as opponents. Fairly simple.

In 4th edition you have to either recalculate the HP, attack bonuses and defenses of every creature you use or use magic-items and call them something else. The former is incredibly time consuming and the later kind of misses the point of a magic-itemless game.

I would have to question that. Magic items are a big part of the game, pre-3e. It would almost be like playing the game without monsters, or spells, or dungeons. Sure, it can be done, but the loss will be felt strongly.

Magic items serve a number of significant functions in OD&D, B/X and 1e. They are a separate, and probably equally important, play driver and reward mechanism, the others being gold and xp. Equipment, particularly magic equipment, is one of the few mechanical means for differentiating between characters of the same class. In the form of potions, wands and other limited use items they are an important type of resource management.

In 2e and in many of the classic modules, magic items frequently perform the role of macguffin.

I will not argue that magic items are not a big part of them game, but I will argue that they are not a necessary part of the game. Think about this: Are magic items more important that the two icons listed in the title of Dungeons and Dragons? Dungeons and dragons are both major parts of the game, but it is entirely possible to play through an adventure or even an entire campaign with out entering a dungeon or encountering a dragon.

 

[Lanefan]

Right, but as I recall- not having my DMG in front of me at the mo- that only deals with the basic "+1 or better to hit" issue, not things like incorporeality.

Fair point - a Wraith needs +1 to hit, which a 4+1 HD creature can trump - once. Then the Wraith hits back and the 4+1 HD critter is now a 3+1 HD critter that is soon destined to become a second Wraith...

(this assumes, as I always have, that level-drainers take HD from monsters just like they take levels from characters - YMMV on this)

Lanefan

 

[Hussar]

A few dailies here and there compared to functionally unlimited healing? Yeah, I've got to go with the Alexandrian blog on that one. And he's not the only one who made that observation. It's come up here from players on a number of occasions.

Oh come on. Sigh. Well, let's look at the PHB 1 shall we? We'll just look at Heroic Tier

Cleric - Sacred Flame - At Will, gain Cha+1/2 level temp hp; Beacon of Hope - Daily, Everyone gains 5 hp; Cure Light Wounds (lvl 2) Daily - Gain hp without spending a surge; Cure Serious Wounds (lvl 6) Daily - Gain double healing surge value, Divine Power (lvl 9) Daily - Gain Regeneration 5

Fighter - Boundless Endurance (lvl 2 Stance) - Daily Gain Regen 2+Con while bloodied; Victorous Surge (Lvl 9 Daily) - Gain hp as if you had spent a surge

Paladin - Lay on Hands - Several times per day - give a healing surge to someone else; Bolstering Strike lvl 1 At will - Gain Wis Temp hp; Invigorating Smite Lvl 3 Encounter - if bloodied gain hp =5+Wis, also affects all bloodied allies within 5;

Y'know, I've got to go to work, so, I'm not going to bother going on here. I've proven my point. In a group, there is absolutely no reason why you aren't gaining bonus hit points every single encounter.

As far as "unlimited healing" goes, well, for a lot of people that was part of the problem, not the solution. Never minding the fact that it only applies to 3e, thus making the Alexandrian article somewhat suspect when claiming that 4e is the only edition to have "hard" limits on healing.

In any case, if your group is having trouble with getting more hit points and the only way their hp are coming back is by using surges, then they have deliberately chosen that as a strategy. That is not required by the rules.