Mechanics vs Description (Forked Thread: Disarm rules)

[starwed]

And since picking up an item is a minor action, even forcing the opponent to drop a weapon is a rather weak attack compared to everything else you could be doing.

I imagine disarming could be tactically useful, preventing the enemy from using OA. And working together, PCs could easily force the creature out of the square and then snag the weapon themselves.

 

[On Puget Sound]

I'm betting monks will have a disarm ability.

 

[generalhenry]

I imagine disarming could be tactically useful, preventing the enemy from using OA. And working together, PCs could easily force the creature out of the square and then snag the weapon themselves.

yep. You always balanced for the optimal case. Because smart players will optimize.

 

[RefinedBean]

Forcing an enemy to spend his minor action (or dropping the Std and Mov down) to pick up his weapon is pretty dang awesome...but in the current system, would proponents of a core disarm mechanic really like disarming their opponent every single round?

I agree that it would have to be used quite tactically...someone readying a standard action to use a power to slide the weapon away, or somesuch. Then it's not so much a problem, because it's the GROUP actively doing something to hinder the enemy, so everyone's having fun.

And it's not like the big bad evil guy is completely without options without his weapon. If a power has a weapon keyword, even for monsters, aren't all humanoids (and all monsters, for that matter) considered proficient in their unarmed attack?

Hm.

 

[MeMeMeMe]

And it's not like the big bad evil guy is completely without options without his weapon. If a power has a weapon keyword, even for monsters, aren't all humanoids (and all monsters, for that matter) considered proficient in their unarmed attack?

One problem is that many of the monsters in the MM only have one attack, so if you disarm them, they have no attack left.

Personally, I'd treat disarm as a tempoorary inconvenience: the monster is weakened or suffers combat advantage, something like that, maybe till it makes a saving throw, or until the end of its next turn. And probably, like the Feint power of bluff, it can only be done once per opponent. (After that, they know to fight in a way to avoid it.) Basically it's a stunt that has a similar effect to many powers, but is less reliable.

 

[RefinedBean]

One problem is that many of the monsters in the MM only have one attack, so if you disarm them, they have no attack left.

Hrm. I don't know the intricacies of the MM just yet, so I don't know if the power's attack bonus takes into account specific proficiency bonuses for the weapon in question, as based on the PHB. I assume it doesn't.

Still, maybe there could be a straight (-X to attack, damage die becomes dX) based on the size/type of monster?

Of course, ranged attack powers would be harder to adjudicate...does an ogre who picks up and throws a boulder he's not proficient with still only do a d4 + Str?

I like your idea of a save ends, meaning the enemy is scrabbling around to pick up their weapon, but are distracted by the battle.

 

[Psychic Robot]

What, mechanically, are you trying to accomplish with a Disarm mechanic? In much of the source material, a disarm ends the fight - one combatant disarms the other, places his blade at the throat of the other, and says "Do you yield?" This is a defeat - 0 HP and proceed from there.

As someone else said, that's an Intimidate check, not a disarm check.

In the other it temporarily inconveniences the disarmee - he has to scramble to get either his own weapon or another one conveniently left around. Mechanically, what does a temporary[/] disarm effect? The target can't use his "Weapon" keyword powers to full effect, because his primary weapon isn't available. See the conditions table for ways to mechanically represent this. So you have powers that, when you are fighting a weapon-wielder, represent the weapon having been disarmed until they save, or the power ends, and they can recover it; but that power isn't gimped against a non-weapon user.

He also provokes attacks of opportunity. He also may choose to retreat. He may also choose to use an alternate weapon that he has, or he can fight unarmed.

In the case of a monster--a 3e monster, at least; I have only glanced through the 4e MM--he may have natural attacks at his disposal.

 

[IanArgent]

As someone else said, that's an Intimidate check, not a disarm check.

He also provokes attacks of opportunity. He also may choose to retreat. He may also choose to use an alternate weapon that he has, or he can fight unarmed.

In the case of a monster--a 3e monster, at least; I have only glanced through the 4e MM--he may have natural attacks at his disposal.

Except that unarmed attacks do not provoke OA, and in fact Weapon keyword powers can be used with an unarmed attack. That's why I said "use Weapon -keyword powers with reduced effect".

Other people have pointed out the problems with removing a weapon from the opponents in the Monster Manual - how much of their "prowess" comes from the weapon and how much from themselves? (Mechanically, it's all from being a threat of X level - see Magic Item threshod for details).

Oh, and as for the intimidate check replacing taken to 0 in my original example - the indimidate check forced the target to drop his blade as part of surrendering

 

[Starbuck_II]

A Disarm mechanic based on Fighter 17th power would be good idea though:
Str -2 vs. Reflex. Enemy drops on weapon he is holding, it lands at feet of his square.

You don't deal damage like the power and extra -2 penalty. Because some monsters need their weapon to use their powers (Bandits and guards need their weapon, for instance, to use encounter powers).

 

[Psychic Robot]

Except that unarmed attacks do not provoke OA, and in fact Weapon keyword powers can be used with an unarmed attack. That's why I said "use Weapon -keyword powers with reduced effect".

AoO = provoked by picking up weapon.

And, quite frankly, you've only strengthened the argument that disarming should be in the game: it is a potent "debuff."

Other people have pointed out the problems with removing a weapon from the opponents in the Monster Manual - how much of their "prowess" comes from the weapon and how much from themselves? (Mechanically, it's all from being a threat of X level - see Magic Item threshod for details).

That's a failing of the system. Magic item threshold makes me want to vomit, but that's for another thread.

Oh, and as for the intimidate check replacing taken to 0 in my original example - the indimidate check forced the target to drop his blade as part of surrendering

Yes, and that would be well and jolly, except the target surrenders rather than chooses to surrender.