D&D 5E Meet Ravenloft's Harkon Lucas and Rudolph Van Richten

WotC has shared some artwork from Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft, featuring the titular vampire hunter himself, and the darklord of Kartakass, Harkon Lucas.

"Rudolph Van Richten prepares for his next expedition, watched over by the spirit of his son, Erasmus."

"A born liar and shape-shifter, Harkon Lukas orchestrates elaborate manipulations.
He's rarely seen without his signature wide-brimmed hat; wolf's tooth necklace; and violin, which he calls Bleeding Heart."​

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Not contained within one genre, okay, that is a good response. So building on that, if D&D core books can mix Medieval Europe with Renaissance Europe and Victorian Masque of the Red Death, exactly where are the boundaries for D&D defined?.

I keep seeing arguments that the 5th Edition Core books are fantasy without boundaries, hence, I bring things I see missing if we go with that definition.

With my Legend of the Five Rings example the consistent artistic aesthetic defines the boundaries to the reader. I see that consistency lacking in official WoTC D&D books.

Well, you've hit the crux of the issue with D&D; there honestly isn't much of a boundary for D&D in sense of genre. You've mentioned jeans/baseball caps, but even D&D 5E has dabbled with that with Unearthed Arcana articles (Modern Magic), and older editions played with science-fiction (Expedition to the Barrier Peaks). D&D 5E's Dungeon Master Guide actually provides rules for modern and sci-fi games (rules for guns/lasers) and even has an art piece depicting a Star Trek-esque laser combat with a monster.

I have snipped out a list of influences from Wikipedia that kind of exemplify how broad D&D really is in genre. The list is quite long, and diverse. Compared to Call of Cthulhu (it's in the name, the influence is Lovecraft) and other popular TTRPGs, D&D is arguably one of the broader and inconsistent game systems.

The world of D&D was influenced by world mythology, history, pulp fiction, and contemporary fantasy novels. The importance of J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit as an influence on D&D is controversial. The presence in the game of halflings, elves, half-elves, dwarves, orcs, rangers, and the like, draw comparisons to these works. The resemblance was even closer before the threat of copyright action from Tolkien Enterprises prompted the name changes of hobbit to 'halfling', ent to 'treant', and balrog to 'balor'. For many years, Gygax played down the influence of Tolkien on the development of the game.[71][72][73] However, in an interview in 2000, he acknowledged that Tolkien's work had a "strong impact" though he also said that the list of other influential authors was long.[74]

The D&D magic system, in which wizards memorize spells that are used up once cast and must be re-memorized the next day, was heavily influenced by the Dying Earth stories and novels of Jack Vance.[75] The original alignment system (which grouped all characters and creatures into 'Law', 'Neutrality' and 'Chaos') was derived from the novel Three Hearts and Three Lions by Poul Anderson.[76] A troll described in this work influenced the D&D definition of that monster.[72]

Other influences include the works of Robert E. Howard, Edgar Rice Burroughs, A. Merritt, H. P. Lovecraft, Fritz Leiber, L. Sprague de Camp, Fletcher Pratt, Roger Zelazny, and Michael Moorcock.[77] Monsters, spells, and magic items used in the game have been inspired by hundreds of individual works such as A. E. van Vogt's "Black Destroyer", Coeurl (the Displacer Beast), Lewis Carroll's "Jabberwocky" (vorpal sword) and the Book of Genesis (the clerical spell 'Blade Barrier' was inspired by the "flaming sword which turned every way" at the gates of Eden).[76]

So... I guess there aren't really boundaries. Most D&D games fall within pre-gunpowder age Western dress (which is still quite broad), but not all do. Very few games are modern/sci-fi inspired, but they still exist. Part of the charm of D&D is that there aren't boundaries.

Using Pathfinder as an example again (it's not technically D&D, but is reflective of a lot of D&D), there's a module where the adventurers travel to 1918 Russia to kill Rasputin, save Baba Yaga, and return to their own pre-modern fantasy world to face an ice witch. I really don't know what genre that's supposed to be beyond... well, fantasy ction-adventure.

 

[Faolyn]

And hence I ask what are the boundaries of this D&D fantasy?

As I've said before, it's basically Iron Age through Enlightenment, pan-European with influences from everywhere else on the planet. That's for technology, though. But with that level of technology comes limitation on how material is processed. Can you make blue jeans, with color-fast blue dye, with that sort of technology?

Clearly if like you said Mad Max has made it into a core D&D book, that means we moved from Medieval through Renaissance through Modern into Post-Apocalyptic. Never said I was against that.

Which they didn't do, because it was a mixture of D&D and Mad Max-style images. They took the Mad Max-style imagery and blended it with the D&D art style.

You don't seem to realize that D&D isn't just one thing or the other. It's a mixture of many things, by hundreds of people over...what, nearly fifty years?--and as such, will reflect many styles.

I simply said unlike other non-WoTC products that have art directors who appreciate consistent art aesthetic, the art directors at WoTC seem clueless.

And you keep failing to realize that they are consistent within the boundaries of D&D's art aesthetics.

I get it. People on other planets get it. You don't like their art choices. That doesn't mean they're "clueless". It just means you don't like it.

If WoTC can channel Mad Max into D&D fantasy then denim jeans exist in that time Rane of reference. But never have I seen in a core WoTC product the modern aesthetic of jeans and baseball caps.

So you are apparently not reading anything I write, because you keep repeating these claims despite me--and others--addressing them multiple times.

So don't bother replying unless you're going to make at least a token effort to try to understand what I'm saying and a willingness to answer the question: Why is it so important that it all look the same to you?

 

[The Glen]

A better question is why aren't we all?

Disco's dead man you gotta let it go

 

[imagineGod]

As I've said before, it's basically Iron Age through Enlightenment, pan-European with influences from everywhere else on the planet. That's for technology, though. But with that level of technology comes limitation on how material is processed. Can you make blue jeans, with color-fast blue dye, with that sort of technology?


Which they didn't do, because it was a mixture of D&D and Mad Max-style images. They took the Mad Max-style imagery and blended it with the D&D art style.

You don't seem to realize that D&D isn't just one thing or the other. It's a mixture of many things, by hundreds of people over...what, nearly fifty years?--and as such, will reflect many styles.


And you keep failing to realize that they are consistent within the boundaries of D&D's art aesthetics.

I get it. People on other planets get it. You don't like their art choices. That doesn't mean they're "clueless". It just means you don't like it.


So you are apparently not reading anything I write, because you keep repeating these claims despite me--and others--addressing them multiple times.

So don't bother replying unless you're going to make at least a token effort to try to understand what I'm saying and a willingness to answer the question: Why is it so important that it all look the same to you?

I think you do not understand D&D magic at all. If D&D artists can justify the existence of Ma's Max inspired vehicles in the Baldur's Gate book, then denim jeans and baseball caps are very plausible in the world d of D&D and also very relatable to the real Players at the table. Adding magic powered mobile phones would make D&D truly inclusive. Remember, D$D fantasy implies anything goes. There seems no logic attached to WoTC D&D 5e core books.

The reason I mention artistic laziness is that the art directors seem to fail at timeline logic. If the can bring post-apocalyptic influences into D&D that is post-denim.

The reason it is difficult to defend the artistic mess of WoTC D&D art is because it has no proper firm or boundaries

But that is less a D&D problem than the laziness or ignorance of American art directors.

I located the French third party publisher, Studio Agate, who used the D&D 5e OGL to create a consistent aesthetic look for their French D&D core books. It is not an impossible task for WoTC to show present obvious logical consistency to their art choices. Right now the WoTC art is a mess that contradicts its own artificial boundaries of skipping computers (the Macintosh is 80s tech) but adding post-Apocalypse inspired vehicles.

Here is French art that has clear focus.

 

[imagineGod]

Anyway it is pointless to continue the arguments. Like everything on The Internet, you can never achieve consensus around anything.

Though the lack of a coherent artistic direction at WoTC is obvious just browsing all the core book art, the true fans refuse to give ground to the more logically consistent fantasy art of non-WoT publishers and TV series showcased in this thread.

Have a nice day.

 

[Weiley31]

not an angry tirade over the lazy race-swap they did on Harkon himself. At least with the gender-swapped Darklords they appear to have massaged their backstory enough to make them unique takes on the trope. Since they went through the trouble there, if they were looking to add a Darklord of color, I would have preferred they went a bit farther to make an actual, new character to replace Harkon. Oh well.

Eh, if Harkon wants to be white for a a number of centuries and then suddenly decide to change it up a bit a couple of more centuries down the road and become a Darklord of color, then he's gonna take advantage of his shapeshifter nature to do it.

 

[Weiley31]

Disco's dead man you gotta let it go

Zed's dead baby, Zed's dead.

 

[Voadam]

When I ran Feast of Goblyns I was annoyed to see that in his first appearance in the first 2e module Harkon Lukas was given a special custom item to specifcally work around the explicit limitation on shapeshifting IDs given in his write up in the boxed set.

 

[Weiley31]

I think you do not understand D&D magic at all. If D&D artists can justify the existence of Ma's Max inspired vehicles in the Baldur's Gate book, then denim jeans and baseball caps are very plausible in the world d of D&D and also very relatable to the real Players at the table. Adding magic powered mobile phones would make D&D truly inclusive. Remember, D$D fantasy implies anything goes. There seems no logic attached to WoTC D&D 5e core books.

The reason I mention artistic laziness is that the art directors seem to fail at timeline logic. If the can bring post-apocalyptic influences into D&D that is post-denim.

The reason it is difficult to defend the artistic mess of WoTC D&D art is because it has no proper firm or boundaries

But that is less a D&D problem than the laziness or ignorance of American art directors.

I located the French third party publisher, Studio Agate, who used the D&D 5e OGL to create a consistent aesthetic look for their French D&D core books. It is not an impossible task for WoTC to show present obvious logical consistency to their art choices. Right now the WoTC art is a mess that contradicts its own artificial boundaries of skipping computers (the Macintosh is 80s tech) but adding post-Apocalypse inspired vehicles.

Here is French art that has clear focus.

Bring on the French Motocycles.

 

[Faolyn]

I think you do not understand D&D magic at all.

Probably better than you do, as I've converted literally hundreds of spells to 5e.

So go ahead and show me the spells that would be used for making denim or baseball caps.

If D&D artists can justify the existence of Ma's Max inspired vehicles in the Baldur's Gate book, then denim jeans and baseball caps are very plausible in the world d of D&D and also very relatable to the real Players at the table. Adding magic powered mobile phones would make D&D truly inclusive. Remember, D$D fantasy implies anything goes. There seems no logic attached to WoTC D&D 5e core books.

Anything goes within the confines of the individual setting. You are trying to say "there's no logic, therefore, jeans," without bothering to look at the logic of the D&D settings. Would baseball or blue jeans logically exist within the Realms? Probably not. How about Ravenloft? Nah. Dragonlance? Birthright? Greyhawk? Mystara? No. As it is, the only D&D setting that can logically contain blue jeans and baseball caps would be Eberron.

You're saying "I feel like the art is all over the place, therefore, modern technology should exist." You are literally making negative sense here. Especially since there is an apples and microwaves-level of difference between the art in a gaming book and the tech levels or society of a gaming world.

The reason I mention artistic laziness is that the art directors seem to fail at timeline logic. If the can bring post-apocalyptic influences into D&D that is post-denim.

No, it's the post-apocalyptic attitude and aesthetics, not the technology or magitech. Also, it takes place in Hell. I don't think devils are likely to care about denim.

The reason it is difficult to defend the artistic mess of WoTC D&D art is because it has no proper firm or boundaries

But that is less a D&D problem than the laziness or ignorance of American art directors.

Wow. So it's not just D&D, but all art directors of a particular nationality who are at fault.

Bigoted much?

Yeah, I'm done here.