Melee Ascendant! magic sleeping with the fishes?

[Belen]

Hey all,

While none of us have seen the news rules set in their entirety, I wonder if anyone else has begun to see this trend in the game. It seems as if the melee classes are on the ascendant with magic slowly being marginalized. I could be completely off my rocker, but I thought I would throw out this topic and see what you all have to say. However, while many people think that the Theurge would be overbalanced under 3.0 rules, maybe WOTC HAD to create such a class because the 3.5 spells have been so hosed that the casters will suffer tremendously.

I have a few reasons to believe that this could happen. If we look at d20 modern, we see many of the spells have been changed and are far less powerful. The reason for this, they say, is because of the advent of technology. I agreed with these ideas at the time because magic is NOT a huge piece of the pie in a modern setting.

Also, the melee players and low-magic GMs tend to be the most vocal. I am sure this has a lot to do with the de facto high magic flavor of the normal DnD setting. People naturally enjoy bucking the norm, especially gamers. Heck, we would not BE gamers if we wanted to walk with the herd. However, most people who enjoy the high magic flavor of the game tend to be silent, since the game does what they want.

Finally, we have a nasty "reality" trend in this country. We just have to look at the reality shows to see people's fascination with the "real." Even on EnWorld we see a constant debate over the unreal aspects of DnD. People complain that things happened this way in the past and DnD has no mechanic for it. We get huge debates over how magic nullifies this and that aspect of everyday medieval life.

Personally, I love the fantastical elements of the game. I have little worry over magic as if written and I wonder at everyone who constantly complains about how "underpowered" melee types are compared to casters. I think that people who think casters/ magic overpowered really do not plan encounters well because EVERY encounter I run usually has the melee types doing most of the work while casters (buff, prepare, gauge) etc. Heck, wizards usually have to take the first round or so to get ready while the melee types are in the thick of battle.

Anywho, judging by the few spells descriptions released (Haste, Harm, Hold) it seems that magic has taken a beating. And we have all heard how the melee classes have been buffed, yet the casters have remained largely the same.

As I said, I could be off my rocker, but I wanted to see if any wiser or more rules savvy folks have noticed anything.... odd.

Dave

 

[Henry]

As an opposite view, I have seen mages in many 3E games eclipse fighters due to the ability to drown the opponents in spells, thanks to haste. Unless the DM is enforcing the concept of a time=specific mission on the players, the traditional player concept is "fight one or at most two battles, and then make camp." Therefore, assuming they take proper precautions, the mages and clerics can regain their spells, and the haste show is back on again.

A lot of the changes are attempting to give players more to do - hence the revision of Haste, heal and harm as swinging the balance back towards party cooperation and keeping players from being uninvolved for long stretches. I think personally that the edge was given the spellcasters, and that edge needs to be swung back slightly, to avoid spellcaster dominance.

Doesn't mean that I like all the changes though. I still like my hold person the way it is, and I still like haste as they were, only at a more powerful spell level. But I can wait and see what the future holds.

 

[Kerrick]

I wonder if anyone else has begun to see this trend in the game. It seems as if the melee classes are on the ascendant with magic slowly being marginalized.

Thank god. I though I was going crazy. Someone on the Monte Cook boards collated all the changes to 3.5 rules that he could find so far. My DM and I read them, and we were both shaking our heads over it. Bards and rangers get 6+Int skill points, and yet wizards (who have their noses in a book most of their lives!) get 2?? Oh, but they have a higher average Intelligence. *snort* Forgive me if I don't buy that. Oh, but they get Decipher Script! (Which, I'll admit, was a necessary addition.)

And now they have things like rings of evasion, which (you guessed it) duplicate the class ability of the same name. Can you say, "Fireballs are useless"? I knew you could. It's getting to the point where wizards and sorcerers will be relegated to the status magic item creators (unless they "fixed" that too...).

 

[Belen]

I can almost see your point with wizards. I do think they should have four points, i just to utilize all those knowledge skills they are rated for. In my experience, no one takes the knowledge skills and I think wizards would be the perfect source for that information.

I do not see the magic users being that much more powerful than the melee types in 3.0. Magic plays a part, but most creatures a mage fights by 10+ have SR or other various immunities. Yes, a mage that scores does serious harm, but the mage in my group is only successful 50% of the time, when he does not sit out the combat by casting protection spells while the melee types are in battle.

In my last session, the mage got surprised and lost half his hit points in the surprise round! He used the next round to find a way to escape, then the 2nd to haste and buff and finally got into the fight by the third round!

Meanwhile, the fighter/ blademaster was having fun with his ungodly to hit rate and base damage of 20 points per hit. His minimum damage per round is 40 with 2 attacks per round...... and they want to make melee types more powerful.... <sigh>

 

[Henry]

And now they have things like rings of evasion, which (you guessed it) duplicate the class ability of the same name. Can you say, "Fireballs are useless"? I knew you could.

Those have already been around - check the system reference document, "Rings of Evasion" - 25,000 gp price.

 

[Tom Cashel]

You know...this really annoys me.

They're going to make the melee more powerful, while completely crippling such spells as hold person (A save per round? What? Either it works or it doesn't!), haste and especially harm. Either power up the melee or power down the magic...but don't do both! That's just stoopid!

They're going to reshuffle a bunch of things, and the way they keep making changes "down to the wire," the new edition will be as flawed as Gamma World 2nd Ed.

 

[Lucius Foxhound]

Has anyone ever heard of Spell Resistance? Seems like everything at high levels has tons of SR. To me, this puts spellcasters at a disadvantage and forces them to cast buff spells or monster summonings. And at low levels, fighters dominate.

I think the system is pretty balanced. Changing spells like Haste, Hold Person, and especially Harm make the move towards spellcasters becoming the new Rangers of the class system.

To me, playing a Wizard is much harder than playing a Fighter. There's much more to keep track of and many more things to look up. So it seems fair that Wizards, at high levels, should be pretty damn powerful.

The save-per-round Hold Person garbage really has me fuming...

How about every spell now gets TWO saves and fighters now get to hold a third weapon in their teeth?

 

[Tom Cashel]

The save-per-round Hold Person garbage really has me fuming...

How about every spell now gets TWO saves and fighters now get to hold a third weapon in their teeth?

How about the DM decides what a spell does, and the player has to keep rolling until the predetermined result comes up?

PC walks through prismatic wall.
DM: Okay, make seven saves.
PC: I made all seven! Woot!
DM: Make them again.
PC: What?
DM: Roll...them all...again.
PC: Okay...I made five out of seven.
DM: You're dead. Next!

 

[Remathilis]

Hold Person is dang powerful though (not as bad as earlier editions, but still)

1.) It practically is save or die, esp with a rogue coup de gracing you.
2.) Its got a long duration, IIRC
3.) PC's hit with it practically sit out the whole combat.
4.) BBEG's aren't as threatening if they are not moving.
5.) Big Brother Hold Monster kills flying creatures, like dragons, dead.
6.) Every cleric worth his symbol has one memorized, just in case.

In a 2nd ed. game played in recently, the cleric (I) was attacked by four hobgoblins. One round later, four hobgoblins were paralyzed and killed. The easiest fight I've ever seen. Granted, 2e Hold Person effected more people, but Hold Person in 3e is still a brutal save or die spell.

 

[Lucius Foxhound]

Hold person = balanced by silent spell