Melee Ascendant! magic sleeping with the fishes?

[Tom Cashel]

1.) It practically is save or die, esp with a rogue coup de gracing you.

"Especially"? Without the coup de grace, it's not even close to being save or die. No one else in the party has a dispel magic? This was the same rationale used to cripple harm; IMO it holds no water whatsoever.

2.) Its got a long duration, IIRC

1 round per level is not that long.

3.) PC's hit with it practically sit out the whole combat.

Sure, in the absence of a dispel. What you don't mention is that NPCs (i.e. enemies) can also be removed for a whole combat. That's good for PCs.

4.) BBEG's aren't as threatening if they are not moving.

Again, I fail to see why, for players, this is drawback.

5.) Big Brother Hold Monster kills flying creatures, like dragons, dead.

Yeah, if you get through the SR, and the save, and any silent, stilled, dispels the dragon might have memorized. Silent, stilled dispel being a MUST for anyone capable of it, after all.

6.) Every cleric worth his symbol has one memorized, just in case.

That's because it was a good spell until 3.5 came along. "New, Improved D&D 3.5! All good spells have been rendered useless without the benefit of playtesting! Buy three copies!"

...Hold Person in 3e is still a brutal save or die spell.

See #1. It's a "save or be held motionless" spell.

 

[drnuncheon]

Hold person = balanced by silent spell

In what way?

"Especially"? Without the coup de grace, it's not even close to being save or die. No one else in the party has a dispel magic?

At 3rd level? Probably not. Maybe not even at 5th, if the wizard wants to have some offensive capability. And if it's the caster that's been held, they're screwed without a silent, stilled dispel. So basically, to defeat a 2nd level spell they need to be 9th level, have 2 metamagic feats and a 5th level spell prepared with those feats - and therefore it's balanced?

Uh-huh.

1 round per level is not that long.

Tell it to the player who is wandering off to play on the PS2 for the next hour while the combat finishes.

Originally posted by Remathilis
4.) BBEG's aren't as threatening if they are not moving.

Again, I fail to see why, for players, this is drawback.

"I coup de grace the motionless, helpless foe!"

How exciting. How heroic. A tale worthy of the skalds, to be sure.

Plus, what makes you so sure that every change in 3.5 is supposed to be solely for the benefit of the players?

J

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Let's hear from a DM...

Magic is basically useless.
Let's see:
Int of 16 (+3)
Level 12 Caster
Fireball
VS
Level 12 party

FOOM!
EVERYONE SAVES (Oooh, big surprise with a 16 DC. Scary...)
See, most players don't read the SRD, so don't know that the Ring of Evasion is in there. Once my players see those, AAAHHH!! NO damage from any Reflex check spells.
Now, consider this. 10d6 damage caps on a lot of spells (down from 20d6, down from no cap) will 5d6 caps be next? Easier and easier to make saves, with less penalties for failure.

OH! Don't forget Haste, Harm & Heal!
Bleh. So a Wizard could cast twice. How many times can they memorize it, and what happened to intelligent enemies who hit the mage with a dispel magic, getting rid of the Buffing spells.
Oh wait, it won't work, the DC for the save is too easy.
Oops.
Harm doesn't have a save! It's mean!
If you are playing at that high level, quit whining and learn some tactics. Have of the complaints I see is because apparently people belong to the CHARGE school of tactics and strategy.

Willpower saves are nearly a joke. Will to completely blow a lot of those spells.

I did the Hold Person recently.
Paralyzed the Cleric. Thief jumps in. FOUR AAO's (no facing, remember). Thief get's slaughtered. Ranger moves in and fire's the body. Coupe de Grace.... Oops, cleric get's dropped to zero. Not death. Just zero. Party SLAUGHTERED the Ranger while the mage bandaged the cleric.
Sigh. Tactics, again.

How often do people blow the spell's saves? Not very often.
This really cripples poison and special abilities that requires saves. It's getting harder and harder for magic or anything else to work. Now, thieves will always be considered checking for traps. So, goodbye traps.
Eventually, a spell will be a visual affect, with a whatever save of (-10*caster level)-Int Bonus.
The spell casting will be worthless, and a high level mage will no longer be a thing to be feared.

My problem is:
Magic is having the guts ripped out of it. Danger for PC's is being eliminated. It's starting to look more and more like Diablo II and less and less challenging.

D&D was Dungeons and Dragons, not Drab & Dumb

 

[Belen]

Amen brother!

It seems that the low-magic crowd is slowly eating away at the system. Too many people want grit and realism and those of us who like magic are fairly silent.

I have no problem with the spells the way they were written. And it is far easier to nullify a mage, than a melee type.

Anti-magic field

Fighter: Ah, back to the basics, except I have a +20 Bab, minimum strength of 22 and I am specialized....heh, heh, heh...I am still doing a base damage of +9!

Mage: I have this dagger. Excuse me, I must go into corner, cry like baby, and committ suicide.

 

[Victim]

Or you could have a level 12 caster
24 INT from level increases and magic
Spell focus evocation

10d6, DC 22. Most classes without good reflex saves have a decent chance of failing that. They probably would be more likely to make the saving throw if the flat system from previous editions was used.

And then there's the fact that the wizard is using one of his weaker spells. Because of his bonus INT and changes to the spell system, he'll have 3 6th level spells compared the 2e caster's one. Maybe he should use those powerful spells instead.

Quite frankly, save or die spells are much more dangerous at high levels because the save DC roughly scales with level. Will power saves generally suck for fighters and rogues.

Finally, any moron with axe can do damage. It's a waste of a wizard's ability if he's going to do the same job as the fighter. Where are the tactics you were talking about? Good luck countering flying or invisible foes without the aid of wizard. Good tactics might involve aiming the Hold at a sword guy separated from the group right before one of your allies attacks. Bam! Instant coup de grace.

There are no tactics to counter Harm. The only spell counter in the PHB is Spell Resistance. Any form of magical mobility will almost certainly allow the caster close to melee. Touch attacks are trivial, especially with a Divine Favor running.

In my experience, the problem with Haste isn't so much that it doubles spellcasting, but that everyone wants extra actions, and thus haste. Everyone shouldn't be running around hasted. My wizard often uses haste and doesn't do much damage compared to the archer or fighter barb.

But I'll let you now when counters to flight and invis, teleport spells, divination magic that scouts out dungeons, offensive Polymorphs and enhancement magic for allies are all useless.

 

[Mercule]

It seems that the low-magic crowd is slowly eating away at the system. Too many people want grit and realism and those of us who like magic are fairly silent.

Feh. I don't want grit and realism. I just see magely types as the sidekicks. It's the guy with the sword who should be the "hero". Basically, I think Merlin was a wizard who knew his place -- second fiddle to Arthur and his circle of knights.

Every now and again, having a mage as the central figure is cool (eg. Rand al'Thor), but most of the time I want to follow the swordslinger, not the spellslinger.

Standard D&D makes that almost impossible. Without that Fireball, you're sunk. Sure, you can reduce the magic in the world in general, but then anyone who plays a standard Wizard cleans up even more.

The game should handle both. You should be able to build your wizard who can level kingdoms, but I should be able to build a knight who slays the dragon by himself (okay, so he usually has a magic sword, but that's rather unobtrusive).

 

[Cedric]

My complaint about 3rd ed. has always been the shift in the balance of power.

I liked it when the power balance from low level to high level went...

Fighter
Cleric
Wizard

The world worked for me then, I was happy. Now that 3rd ed has changed things so that everyone has a TON of hit points and the spells are still damage capped. Creatures have huge saving throws and SR is rampant. Mages were seriously taken down a peg.

Then add in the huge number of attacks a fighter gets, along with all of those feats and the higher strength bonus and more common magical weapons...

The wizard, starting with 3rd ed, had his teeth seriously pulled. His number of spells per day bite and the damage caps on spells make it so that his FIREBALL!!! is lucky to dent a serious tank fighter...assuming the fighter takes any damage at all.

A world of multi-class options exist for a melee character that will make the character better. Any multi-classing a wizard will water him down to the point of no longer being a serious wizard.

Cedric

 

[I'm A Banana]

IMHO, making everyone equally good at all levels is one of the BEST things D&D3e did.

They pulled the wizard's teeth? GOOD. A wizard shouldn't be any more a worthwhile character choice than any other character at any level. No better. No worse.

Ditto with every other class in existence.

Some spells are getting nerfed? That's kinda OK, since most of the staples (fireball, magic missile, ice storm, etc.) don't get nerfed.

The lack of save-or-die is, IMHO, a good thing. I don't want a battle to hinge on the failure or sucess of a single save from one character. I want it to hinge on the party as a whole.

Save-or-die used in moderation is a good thing (finger of death, destruction, disintegration, all OK). But when used in great numbers (Holds, for instance), it gets a bit insane, because then the mage has the old 2e Psionicist problem: "I'm either game-breakingly cool, or ultra uber-suck pointless."

I don't like that, as much. I want them to have versatility and variety that doesn't depend on a roll or a save (basically dumb luck with a slight spin) to work.

Totally nerfing magic wouldn't be cool, IMHO. But pulling some of the worse choppers ain't so bad. I didn't mind Haste, Harm, or Hold as they were...but I gotta admit, I generally like the new versions better (assuming Haste adds a move action, that's cool...).

 

[Mercule]

My complaint about 3rd ed. has always been the shift in the balance of power.

Likewise. I hate the fact that Wizards overpower Fighters even more.

In previous editions, it was viable to play without a wizard in the group. In 3E, that is absurd. I know, we tried for over a year to a stealth/combat group like what I'd seen successfully done in 1E and 2E. It doesn't even work at low levels.

Having different classes balance differently at different levels is absolutely ridiculous. Even though Wizards are absolutely critical in 3E, at least the power curve stays consistant. Now, if they could just reign the class in a bit so it didn't constantly steal the show, I'd be happy.

 

[Belen]

I am not sure where you get the idea that melee types take a back burner to the wizard. In my campaign, the swordslinger IS king and I run a campaign with heavy magic!!!! The 15th level mage is no where near effective at the fighter/ blademaster who can pull off +20 minimum damage with a lousy +2 sword!

And as for save/ die spells, most of those spells are fortitude saves. Good luck catching a melee character with one. You'd have to exist on luck to see a fighter fail one of those saves by the time that wizards get those spells.

As for hold, it is dangerous at low levels, but by high level play, even melee characters can make that save with little worry. The one time a melee type every got taken by Hold Person was the monk paladin (he rolled a one!) The WIZARD ran into melee and stood between the monk/paladin and the opposing fighter and cleric and fended them off until the rest of the party could get there.

Of course, the new hold spell will prevent that type of heroism because statistically, a held character will save before they can be taken down.