Melee classed small Raced characters?

[Gyoza Dog]

Here's a comparison between a medium-sized fighter and small-sized fighter. Each is otherwise identical at level 12, 22 Str, feats of WF, gWF, WS, gWS, iC in greatsword, and each wields a +3 greatsword.

But the small character should have 20 strength not 22 for it to be a true comparison.

 

[frisbeet]

But the small character should have 20 strength not 22 for it to be a true comparison.

I'm not sure that's much of a comparison, because the result is obvious: stronger is better. But here's by how much. Same stats as above, but small guy has 20 Str. I invite you to tinker with my spreadsheet (signature) to try other comparisons of small vs. medium, tiny vs. medium, small vs. large, etc. with different weapons, feats, and multiclass combos to your heart's content.

opp AC  small  large
10	66.69	78.66
11	66.69	78.66
12	66.69	78.66
13	66.69	78.66
14	66.69	78.66
15	66.69	78.66
16	65.52	77.28
17	64.35	75.90
18	63.18	74.52
19	62.01	73.14
20	60.84	71.76
21	58.50	69.00
22	56.16	66.24
23	53.82	63.48
24	51.48	60.72
25	49.14	57.96
26	45.63	53.82
27	42.12	49.68
28	38.61	45.54
29	35.10	41.40
30	31.59	37.26
31	27.93	32.95
32	24.38	28.75
33	20.91	24.67
34	18.57	21.91
35	16.23	19.15
36	13.75	16.22
37	11.36	13.40
38	9.07	10.70
39	7.90	9.32
40	6.73	7.94
41	5.41	6.38
42	4.19	4.95
43	3.07	3.62
44	3.07	3.62
45	3.07	3.62
46	3.07	3.62
47	3.07	3.62
48	3.07	3.62
49	3.07	3.62
50	3.07	3.62

 

[Voadam]

They get 5' reach, but can't attack in their own square.

So they can flank and sneak attack much like a medium-size rogue with a dagger or rapier.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Why is it wrong to have it as a free action? If you think about it is pretty logical. Eg a paladin having a cha mod of +1 (or lowered to that) would gain no advantage of the feat since it would only work one round which is until your next turn. The general concensus is that a feat, if you fulfill the prereq's should grant you some sort of bonus.

The only problem is that DotF is completely unambigous: all Divine feats require a standard action to activate. WotC has released some confusing "errata" on the issue, but those of us who can read plain English are unconvinced -- even if we agree that changing the Divine Feats would be a Good Thing.

As written (requiring a standard action to activate), I do not think Divine Might is a good feat at all. In my experience, the outcome of the combat is usually decided in the first three rounds -- all that is left to see is if the more savvy losers can successfully flee. In such combats, losing your first action so that you do more damage in the following two or three is a very small benefit. Considering the rather steep prereqs, Divine Might is quite mediocre overall IMO.

 

[Gyoza Dog]

I'm not sure that's much of a comparison, because the result is obvious: stronger is better. But here's by how much.

The point is finding out by how much a small character is worse off when trying to directly compete with medium characters. If you compare small and medium with the same strength score its meaningless because:
1) You're comparing a small fighter with a medium fighter who is just not as dedicated (or he would have the same boost to base strength)
2) The small character is always better. +1 to hit from size can be coverted into +2 damage with power attack while keeping the same to hit as the medium character. The difference in average damage between weapon sizes is only 1.5 or less.

 

[Darklone]

The only problem is that DotF is completely unambigous: all Divine feats require a standard action to activate. WotC has released some confusing "errata" on the issue, but those of us who can read plain English are unconvinced -- even if we agree that changing the Divine Feats would be a Good Thing.

As written (requiring a standard action to activate), I do not think Divine Might is a good feat at all. In my experience, the outcome of the combat is usually decided in the first three rounds -- all that is left to see is if the more savvy losers can successfully flee. In such combats, losing your first action so that you do more damage in the following two or three is a very small benefit. Considering the rather steep prereqs, Divine Might is quite mediocre overall IMO.

The only problem with the feat was at first that it had a duration and the FAQ wanted to address if it costs any kind of action during it's duration (said the Sage in an email here to the boards).
As RC pointed out, the books is pretty clear. Activating such a feat is just like turning undead a standard action. Why a paladin with Cha 12 or 13 can't use it... his own fault, he should never have taken it.

I don't agree that it's not a good feat at all. It's just as good as any other buff spell during combat. You use Divine Power and Righteous Might? Why not Divine Might? Sure, the prerequisites are high, but Power Attack and a good strength does not hurt any paladin I know.
Seen a paladin with Cha 30 and TWF... sure, his strength sucked. But not his damage.

 

[Nifft]

This thread has gotten me thinking. Do you consider a Tiny character race to be viable?

Yes.

Here's mine, though any discussion of it probably belongs in House Rules.

Gnome

Tiny size (+2 Attack & AC, +8 Hide checks, 50% carrying capacity)
Base Speed 20 ft.
Str -4, Cha +2
Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes may treat gnome hooked hammers as Martial rather then Exotic weapons.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions
Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears)
+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants)
+2 racial bonus on Listen and Craft (alchemy) checks
Low-light Vision: Gnomes can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Automatic Languages: Common and Gnome
Bonus Languages: Sylvan, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Orc. In addition, a gnome can speak with animals once per day. This ability is innate to gnomes. See the speak with animals spell description.
Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day -- Speak with Animals (duration 1 minute). A gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 3/day -- Prestidigitation. Caster level 1st or Gnome's character level, whichever is higher; save DC 10 + gnome's Cha modifier.
Favored Class: Bard