Melee Touch Attack

[zlorf]

A melee touch attack is an unarmed strike. A grapple attempt (like if you made the touch attack successfully) is its own weapon focus.

Also, note that you must be proficient with the unarmed strike to take a weapon focus in it.

Originally Posted by srd
Weapon Focus [General]

Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites

Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit

You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special

You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter may select Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats. He must have Weapon Focus with a weapon to gain the Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon.


So after reading that, i would say why take weapon focus *grapple* if you can just any weapon to start a grapple and get the benefit of +1 for any attack other attack as well.

Cheers
Z

 

[zlorf]

A melee touch attack is an unarmed strike. A grapple attempt (like if you made the touch attack successfully) is its own weapon focus.

Also, note that you must be proficient with the unarmed strike to take a weapon focus in it.

Unfortunately if you read trip it throws all my logic out the window, by introducing an unarmed melee touch attack, which is different from melee touch attack.

The benefit of using a weapon is that you dont get AoO, which is interesting because
when you attempt a grapple with a weapon you do get a AoO (unless you have improved grapple).

I think grapple should have just said you make an "unarmed melee touch attack" to grab your opponent, you cop a AoO unless you have the improved grapple feat.

Cheers
Z

 

[Dracorat]

So after reading that, i would say why take weapon focus *grapple* if you can just any weapon to start a grapple and get the benefit of +1 for any attack other attack as well.

Now that I think about it, that initial touch attempt is probably the *grapple* check.

 

[Infiniti2000]

My problem is with the logic of the whole touch someone with a weapon to initiate a grapple.

I see your point now. You're right that grab is not technically restricted by weapon:

grab
The initial attack required to start a grapple. To grab a target, the character must make a successful melee touch attack.

I think, however, that the definition for grappling shows that it is only for unarmed combat:

grappling
Engaged in wrestling or some other form of hand-to-hand struggle with one or more attackers. A grappling character can undertake only a limited number of actions. He does not threaten any squares, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) against opponents he isn't grappling. For creatures, grappling can also mean trapping opponents in any number of ways (in a toothy maw, under a huge paw, and so on).

You do, however, make a good point. It really should specify unarmed melee attack. On the other hand, this would conflict with improved grab, but there could be some extra verbage that would specify you grapple unarmed unless you have some other special abilities.

Intriguing.

 

[Artoomis]

Unfortunately if you read trip it throws all my logic out the window, by introducing an unarmed melee touch attack, which is different from melee touch attack.

The benefit of using a weapon is that you dont get AoO, which is interesting because
when you attempt a grapple with a weapon you do get a AoO (unless you have improved grapple)...

Cheers
Z

I am not sure you can start a grapple with a weapon but, in any case, there are TWO AoOs for grappling (important for Combat Reflexes):

1. To start a grapple. (Must be unarmed, I would think, since you need to "grab" your opponent, not hit them normally).

2. For movement - for moving into the opponent's square to maintain the grapple (Step 4 of grappling).

That risks TWO AoOs AND means Improved Grapple AND Improved Grab STILL provoke an AoO if you want to maintain the grapple

But note that this second AoO is not from the target but from others in the combat, and only means the movement would provoke an AoO as normal.

 

[Infiniti2000]

That risks TWO AoOs AND means Improved Grapple AND Improved Grab STILL provoke an AoO if you want to maintain the grapple

Improved grab NEVER provokes. You do not provoke from your target and you do not move (your target moves).

But note that this second AoO is not from the target but from others in the combat, and only means the movement would provoke an AoO as normal.

This makes your comment about Combat Reflexes irrelevant. Combat Reflexes has nothing at all to do with grappling. In no way do you provoke more than one AoO from any one opponent. You only provoke an AoO from the target with the initial grapple check (but not with improved grab/grapple) and you only provoke an AoO from others if you move.

 

[zlorf]

With Improved Grab the monster has to bypass the PC's normal AC not just a touch attack as with grappling. Most monsters to initiate Improved grab..im sure need to hit with both claws, sometimes a only a bite. I see enough distinction between Improved Grab and Grappling to justify have different rules, though im not really sure what the conflict is?

Is it because Improved Grab doesnt use a unarmed melee touch attack?

To me the monster isn't looking to grapple most of the time, but when it goes WHAM with one claw and deals damage and them WHAM with another..hey look there's a nice PC stuck
between my meaty claws...thats when the Improved Grab kicks in.

So to summerise:
Make Grapple inline with Trip , its now a unarmed melee touch attack to initiate a grapple. Trip weapons are different, but they are specifically made for tripping so therefore you get to add weapon bonus, feats etc.

Improved Grapple is the same, just helps to avoid the AoO during the initial unarmed melee touch attack, and the +4 while grappling.

I would also introduce that you must have at least 1 hand free to initiate a grapple (unarmed melee touch attack) You can do this with a light shield (nothing heavier) in one hand and a two handed weapon in the other for example. Once you are grappling it doesn't matter what you are holding, you can use your feat, elbow, knees head etc while grappling.

Basically all it does is make it slightly harder to start the grapple, but seeing that a touch AC
is normally fairly low in most cases and for NPC, PC that arn't then it should be harder. Otherwise everything after that is the same.

Note: i dont know all the feats etc , so im happy for someone to tell me where this might
fall down.

Cheers
Zlorf

I see your point now. You're right that grab is not technically restricted by weapon:

I think, however, that the definition for grappling shows that it is only for unarmed combat:

You do, however, make a good point. It really should specify unarmed melee attack. On the other hand, this would conflict with improved grab, but there could be some extra verbage that would specify you grapple unarmed unless you have some other special abilities.

Intriguing.

 

[Dracorat]

2. For movement - for moving into the opponent's square to maintain the grapple (Step 4 of grappling).

That part is situational. If the only movement done is for the grapple, then your entire movement for the round is 5'. You can take a 5' step as part of an action and only provoke the AO from the person who's square you are stepping in to.

However, if you moved across the room and then started a grapple, then yes, you provoke as you step out of the square.

 

[Bad Paper]

No. A melee touch attack is simply BAB + Strength modifier.

ah! This is not spelled out anywhere in the rules, so I wondered this for years. I have always run this as BAB + Dex modifier, because why in Hell would you need Strength for that? As of late I have started to slide it to using the better of either Str or Dex.

 

[Infiniti2000]

ah! This is not spelled out anywhere in the rules, so I wondered this for years. I have always run this as BAB + Dex modifier, because why in Hell would you need Strength for that? As of late I have started to slide it to using the better of either Str or Dex.

In actuality, there are only two types of attack rolls, the melee attack roll and the ranged attack roll. One uses your Strength (by default) and one uses your Dexterity (by default). The "touch" part of the roll merely defines the success of the attack roll (by selecting what components of the target's AC are included).