Melnibonean-inspired race as LA+0

[Waylander]

Anyone have any suggestions about the plane as this might help flesh out what other abilities or penalties to give the race (e.g. they might have a benefit against a certain energy type but be particularly susceptible to the opposed energy type)?

I'd rather not use an alternative "prime" as the cosmology is pretty fixed to a single version of the standrad types.

Cheers!

 

[Nifft]

This is really interesting. Page 173 of the DMG (in the Ability Score Equivalncies table) states/implies that a bonus to Strength is balanced by a penalty to Intelligence AND Charisma.

It does say that.

My suggestion is merely to turn this on its head and give a penalty to Strength and a bonus to Intelligence AND Charisma. The DMG repeatedly states that Strength is the dominant characteristic due to it's multitude of benefits in combat and skill checks.

But this is a false assumption. The operation is not symmetrical. There are plenty of classes out there which don't use Str at all -- and by a happy coincidence, some of those are the classes which can make excellent use of Int and/or Cha.

Int affects everyone, at least a little, thanks to the skill system. Charisma... can be used as a dump stat. It's valuable to a minority of classes, but a bonus to Charisma is disproportionately strong for those classes.

If you honestly can't see why -2 Int is different from +2 Int, I can explain in more detail, but it should be rather obvious once you consider that the PC is allowed to choose his own class.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Evilhalfling]

I like the idea, of a Melnibonean-inspired race of casters stuck on another plane, I have used Kaorti from the FF in this role myself.

However I will add my voice to those who say +2 int & chr is out of balance. There have been long arguments here on if any + to a caster stat is worth +1 LA.
I would have them either concentrate on wizardry or sorcerery, and fix the bonus. If they are a small group they would logically all have specalized in one or the other.

Plane of Shadows carries lots of baggage - vision, negative planar links, bows being useless due to sight range, etc.

Limbo on the other hand could be interesting - see the githzari who also have solid outposts there. I don't think they have any energy resistances. I have found that even though they are a +2 LA the +6 to wisdom makes them playable, if very specalized.

Bows might not be much use in limbo, and compound bows are inefficent with a str penalty.

Other benifits that could come from limbo:
+2 to concentrate.
+ to reflex saves (to dodge changing conditions)
+ spot, listen and search
the knowledge planes bonus works best if they had contact with other residents, or the ability to observe other planes.

 

[szilard]

How about:

Medium size - they are pale, with an average height of around 7' and unnaturally slender by human standards

Base land speed is 30 feet

Low-light vision

Weapon Familiarity: Composite bows are treated as simple rather than martial weapons

Racial Skills: +2 racial bonus on Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Search, Spellcraft, and Spot checks

Special Qualities: A resistance bonus to an energy type appropriate to the plane that they went to, equal to one-half their class levels.

Favoured Class: Sorcerer or Wizard?

 

[Nifft]

There have been long arguments here on if any + to a caster stat is worth +1 LA.

LA is a terribly blunt tool.

You can easily design a race that is too strong for LA +0, but not strong enough for LA +1. It's a problem with the spellcasting system mostly.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Waylander]

It does say that.

But this is a false assumption. The operation is not symmetrical. There are plenty of classes out there which don't use Str at all -- and by a happy coincidence, some of those are the classes which can make excellent use of Int and/or Cha.

Int affects everyone, at least a little, thanks to the skill system. Charisma... can be used as a dump stat. It's valuable to a minority of classes, but a bonus to Charisma is disproportionately strong for those classes.

If you honestly can't see why -2 Int is different from +2 Int, I can explain in more detail, but it should be rather obvious once you consider that the PC is allowed to choose his own class.

Cheers, -- N

Point taken

The more I think about it the more that making them have a natural affinity for magic leans them more towards a +2 for Charisma rather than Intelligence.

But to keep them distinct from elves I would still prefer to go for -2 Strength and +2 Charisma with a favoured class of Sorcerer (-2 Dexterity or Intelligence or Wisdom doesn't fit with the concept).

While this does make the race a very strong contender for players wanting to play a Sorcerer I don't believe my group would take undue advantage of it. In fact I can almost see it working in the opposite direction with some of them wanting the challenge of playing a Fighter . . .

 

[Set]

Page 173 of the DMG (in the Ability Score Equivalncies table) states/implies that a bonus to Strength is balanced by a penalty to Intelligence AND Charisma. My suggestion is merely to turn this on its head and give a penalty to Strength and a bonus to Intelligence AND Charisma. The DMG repeatedly states that Strength is the dominant characteristic due to it's multitude of benefits in combat and skill checks.

That is interesting, isn't it? Strength is 'more equal' when it's working in the Half-Orcs favor, but it's considered to be worthless when you take a hit to it and try to take something else.

I'd go with -2 Str and their choice of +2 Int or Cha, with favored class also being a choice between Wizard and Sorcerer. Some have 'old blood' or are 'tainted' by their planar travels, and have the Charisma and FC: Sorcerer, others 'have to work at it' and study hard to make up for their lack of Sorcerous potential.

Each faction, the 'blooded' and the 'learned,' as one would expect, hold each other in contempt. The learned consider the 'tainted' to be dilettantes, as much a slave to the power in their blood as beneficiaries of it's might, and somewhat 'thick-headed' to boot, while the blooded consider the 'bookworms' to be working oh-so-hard to try and keep up with their betters, who are clearly destined for greatness, unlike the grubbing readers, studying all night to try and figure out what the sorcerers are *born* knowing...

Skip the energy resistance and consider a racial skill bonus in Diplomacy and Bluff, similar to that of the Half-Elves, in this case a near requirement to survive adolescence in the intrigue and treachery-promoting courts of these jaded people.

 

[Waylander]

I like the idea, of a Melnibonean-inspired race of casters stuck on another plane, I have used Kaorti from the FF in this role myself.

However I will add my voice to those who say +2 int & chr is out of balance. There have been long arguments here on if any + to a caster stat is worth +1 LA.
I would have them either concentrate on wizardry or sorcerery, and fix the bonus. If they are a small group they would logically all have specalized in one or the other.

Plane of Shadows carries lots of baggage - vision, negative planar links, bows being useless due to sight range, etc.

Limbo on the other hand could be interesting - see the githzari who also have solid outposts there. I don't think they have any energy resistances. I have found that even though they are a +2 LA the +6 to wisdom makes them playable, if very specalized.

Bows might not be much use in limbo, and compound bows are inefficent with a str penalty.

Other benifits that could come from limbo:
+2 to concentrate.
+ to reflex saves (to dodge changing conditions)
+ spot, listen and search
the knowledge planes bonus works best if they had contact with other residents, or the ability to observe other planes.

Thanks for the feedback!

See my post above - I've gone for Sorcerer over Wizard (which kind of goes a little away from the original concept but still "feels" OK).

I feel that the -2 Strength and +2 Charisma now leaves the race a little unbalanced in the opposite direction (except with regards to the Sorcerer class) and so feel there ought to be some benefit to the race to make them slightly more attractive for martial characters.

I also like your idea of the Plane of Limbo. In terms of weapon familiarity, I agree that composite bows are a little less than useful for a race with a Strength penalty. How about using a bastard sword one-handed being treated as a martial rather than exotic weapon?

 

[Waylander]

. . . consider a racial skill bonus in Diplomacy and Bluff, similar to that of the Half-Elves, in this case a near requirement to survive adolescence in the intrigue and treachery-promoting courts of these jaded people.

Really like this idea but must dash as I need to be somewhere else!

 

[Nifft]

I feel that the -2 Strength and +2 Charisma now leaves the race a little unbalanced in the opposite direction (except with regards to the Sorcerer class) and so feel there ought to be some benefit to the race to make them slightly more attractive for martial characters.

Er, my argument is actually that ANY mental ability boost is unbalanced for LA +0 if there is ANY primary spellcasting class which derives all of its spellcasting benefit from that stat.

Basically, a race that's only suited to being Sorcerers -- but is a better Sorcerer than anyone else -- is a poorly designed race.

A question: why must this race have a +2 / -2 ability modification? Give the race other cool stuff, and let it be a baseline Human in terms of ability scores. Or just give an ability penalty, and extra cool stuff, like the Warforged get.

Cheers, -- N