Merciful weapons and TOB Maneuvers

[Veven1290]

Under the description for the Merciful weapon enhancement it says, "all damage [the weapon] deals is nonlethal damage". Does this mean you could use a maneuver like say, Mountain hammer for an extra 2d6 nonlethal that overcomes damage reduction?

I really hope so.


Edit: Also, since "all damage it deals is nonlethal" does that mean you could have nonlethal dragonfire inspiration damage? or a +1 merciful flaming shock warhammer or something like that and still do all nonlethal damage?

 

[Empirate]

2d6 of the 3d6 extra damage your warhammer would deal are not weapon damage, but 1d6 fire damage and 1d6 electricity damage, over and above weapon damage. But sneak attack/sudden strike/skirmish, extra damage from maneuvers, Power Attack, Spirited Charge etc. all count as the same type of damage as the weapon itself deals (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing), i.e. as 'weapon damage' in this sense.

BTW, a notable exception to the maneuver extra damage would be fire damage from Desert Wind maneuvers...

 

[Veven1290]

Sounds reasonable to me, thanks for the help.

 

[frankthedm]

2d6 of the 3d6 extra damage your warhammer would deal are not weapon damage, but 1d6 fire damage and 1d6 electricity damage, over and above weapon damage. But sneak attack/sudden strike/skirmish, extra damage from maneuvers, Power Attack, Spirited Charge etc. all count as the same type of damage as the weapon itself deals (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing), i.e. as 'weapon damage' in this sense.

BTW, a notable exception to the maneuver extra damage would be fire damage from Desert Wind maneuvers...

To me it looks like all the damage the weapon dishes out is non lethal. Especially since the wording on energy enchantments read out "A flaming weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit."

One thing i know that might counter this argument was a mention in the 3.0 DMG about certain types of damage should never be non lethal, with fire and piercing being called out IIRC.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

I've always ruled that all damage dealt with a merciful weapon is converted to non-lethal damage. I've never made any distinction between precision damage, other magical qualities or energy damage, maneuvers, crits and so on. As long as hp damage is dealt with the weapon, it's converted to non-lethal.

Seems to me that since the merciful quality is suppressible with a command word, that's the intention of such an item. Also, I can't really see the point of the enhancement if it doesn't do a full conversion like that when mixed with other weapon qualities.

However, I can't actually find an official ruling one way or the other.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, if you're going to have merciful convert energy damage to nonlethal, hopefully you also let it bypass energy resistance! Since at that point the damage is not really any different than the weapon's itself.

I like the 3.0 DMG's ruling, or at least the gist of it since frank didn't have an exact quote. I'd not let merciful affect energy damage or certain other types of damage, but maneuver bonus damage (unless it's energy based, as noted above), sneak attack, etc... that would be converted.

 

[akbearfoot]

Why would a merciful flaming weapon interract any differently with respect to energy resistance?

You calculate the damage, then reduce damage accordingly to compensate for energy resistance. Then you deal the proper amount of damage which is subdual instead of lethal. You don't change the source of the damage, just the the final outcome of the damage if it manages to hurt the target.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Why would a merciful flaming weapon interract any differently with respect to energy resistance?

Can nonlethal fire attacks still set things on fire? If so, does the creature or object that catches on fire then take nonlethal damage each round?

It just seems so silly to me...

 

[frankthedm]

Exactly, Merciful isn't a curse that sneaks onto your weapon, you choose wield the weapon because the weapon is better for knocking people out. Sure there might be some people who looked at the property and homed in on non energy type damage, but those are not who the property was made for.

 

[Dandu]

Can nonlethal fire attacks still set things on fire? If so, does the creature or object that catches on fire then take nonlethal damage each round?

It just seems so silly to me...

You can certainly cause people to pass out from, say, heatstroke.