Merging Divine/Arcane Magic

[cincinnati reds]

Everyone,

I'm kicking around ideas for a new campaign once I wrap up my current one in a few months, and I am really intrigued by the idea of using the generic classes in Unearthed Arcana, and then using Bard, Paladin, Ranger and Druid as Prestige Classes.

Looking at the spellcaster class, they work as Sorcerers, but at the character's creation the player has to decide whether they're casting Arcane or Divine spells. What if I gave spellcasters the option to choose arcane and divine spells for their list? Can anyone point out the issues I might have with this?

Setting-wise, btw, "divine" spells wouldn't come "from the Gods." The church is a powerful political entity, but it's members don't necessarily have access to divine magic. In fact, they probably see "magi" as heretical.

 

[Verequus]

I don't have Unearthed Arcana, so I can comment only on the spell selection, which shouldn't be impeded by my lack of knowledge.

The biggest problem will be the cherry-picking of the spells. You can not only simple drop the ineffective spells in advance, but combine both archetypes in one class - getting both the healing spells and the most powerful attack spells. If you include in your consideration, that not every class gains access to a spell at the same spell level, then it is a recipe for disaster. If all spells are available as for the cleric, then you will have automatically a problem in higher levels - if the caster has to use a spell book, then the problem will be only delayed, until the player gains access to the spells.

It would take some care in the creation process of the spell lists, to weed the biggest culprits out, but this wouldn't strike a player as fair, if he is forbidden to choose most or all powerful spells. In a certain sense, this class would be a Mystic Theurge with full caster progression from the first level on, but with fewer spell slots. If you look for an assessment of the Mystic Theurge, there are many threads on this board - and in WotC's Character Optimation threads there are shown some ways to increase the caster levels of the Mystic Theurge even further to equal the pure wizards/clerics.

But if you are interested in systems, which did away the arcane/divide, then I can you refer as low-cost solution to the psionics system. It takes some work to remodel the flavor, but I've seen some recommodations, that psionics is sufficient as replacement.

Next on my candidate list is Arcana Unearthed/Arcana Evolved. Its flavor is already more magic-y and retains the spell slots, but it could be difficult to remodel the magic system to fit the UA generic classes.

Then we have Elements of Magic Revised and its companion book Elements of Magic: Lyceian Arcana. It uses Magic Points to empower the spells and goes far on creating a system to unify the spell mechanics. It still has some weaknesses, but those should be eliminated in the compilation, which should be published in this year. I expect (in my private opinion), that this revision will be given for free, if you have purchased both books. It is also the system, I'm using myself, so this recommendation is somewhat biased.

The last option, I can recall, is the Blue Rose magic system. I haven't seen it myself, but a staff reviewer praised it, so take this with a grain of salt.

 

[Lobo Lurker]

As a step in the direction of an Arcana Evolved/Arcana Unearthed style solution you can simply make a unified spell list. Strip out the most effective spells and group them in handfuls based on theme or function. Then, assign a feat to each group that gives access to those spells. You could even make such feats mutually exclusive. You might even have feats that enhance the effectivness of said spell groups.

The net effect of such a system would ensure that all casters have the same basic functions (minor healing, decent utility spells, and moderate attack spells). Via feat selection some casters will be consumate healers (i.e., the Cure line of spells), Diviners (clerics have nice divinations, there are some nice high-level arcane ones as well), Battle Casters (Fireball, LB, etc), ad on infinitum.

I guess you could build out PrCs for each role as well... but I don't particularly like that idea.

===> EDIT: Actually, rereading this maybe you can just neuter (lower the damage caps or increase the # of levels needed to reach that cap) the more effective spells and make feats that enhance certain types of effects (I'm thinking a three-feat-tree that eventually gives access to a very powerful spell as the third feat (like Heal or Ressurection).

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

I'd suggest looking into Arcana Unearthed. It'd be a big investment for a potentially small payoff, but it has a very good unified magic system with one spell list. Also, there are a lot of other good ideas and coolness in it.

On second thought, maybe just buying the Grimoire .pdf would be best. IIRC, it has all the spells and the spell list, plus an explanation of how the magic works. I don't know if buying the Way of the Staff .pdf, which has the 'caster classes, is necessary.


EoM[R] and Lyceian Arcana are, indeed, very good; however, they're quite different and can be difficult to wrap your head around at first.

 

[the Lorax]

I'm kicking around ideas for a new campaign, and I am really intrigued by the idea of using the generic classes in Unearthed Arcana, and then using Bard, Paladin, Ranger and Druid as Prestige Classes.

Looking at the spellcaster class, they work as Sorcerers, but at the character's creation the player has to decide whether they're casting Arcane or Divine spells. What if I gave spellcasters the option to choose arcane and divine spells for their list? Can anyone point out the issues I might have with this?

Lots of interesting ideas above for shoe horning in other rules to fit your needs.

Me, I say let 'em Cherry-Pick the spells, but mandate that Charisma is the casting stat, and utilize the restrictions of an "arcane" caster. The party will still need 2 casters.

 

[wuyanei]

The biggest problem I see is for 'sorcerer-type clerics' is that players would probably be unwilling to 'waste' a precious spells-known slot on 'situational' spells such as 'neutralize poison', 'remove paralysis', 'raise dead', 'ressurection' or 'true ressurection'.

What I mean is, at 20th level, a sorcerer still only knows four 4th level spells, and three 7th or 9th level spells. Would a player be willing to use up a slot for a 'raise dead' type spell that would certainly never benefit herself? Yet the ability to cast ressurection type spells is a vital ability for a high level party because of all the 'save or die' challenges they face.

Now, the players can certainly use wish, limited wish or miracle to duplicate the effects of the aformentioned spells, but these spells have an XP cost, which effectively penalizes the caster for raising a party member. The players can also use planar binding or planar ally to get creatures to cast these spell for them. This is more campaign specific.

IMC, I have allowed sorcerers to choose spells from any spell list. (but spell that are cleric, druid or bard only are at +1 spell level, ranger and paladin spells are at +2 spell level.) IME, this leads to great 'battle cleric' type casters, who perfom the 'blast-buff-bash' routine with unholy glee. However, such spell users rarely take a spell that does not see common use (read: useful in combat). This might be concern for you is you make all spellcasters into sorcerer type casters.

 

[S'mon]

I let Wizards/Sorcs get pretty much every spell, doesn't seem to imbalance the game. I'll raise the spell level if it's more powerful than equivalents already on their lists (eg Entangle would be 2nd level).

 

[wuyanei]

I allow wizards, IMC, to research any type of spell, but they probably will not succeed at researching obviously alignment or divinity related spells. (Such as Holy Smite, Holy Aura, Holy Word, Miracle, Planar Ally, Holy Sword, Atonement etc.) I tell my players upfront if a research attempt will certainly fail, but otherwise roll spellcraft and make them pay the research cost (in both time and gp).

For other cleric, druid, bard, ranger or paladin spells, the wizard can create a spell that emulates the cleric, druid, bard, ranger or paladin spell in question, likely at +1 or even +2 or more spell levels. I have not found this unbalancing IMC.