D&D 4E Merric's thoughts on 4e

[see]

You lost me at the part where 4th Ed. being different from what's come before it somehow invalidates any merit it has as it's own game. It's apparent you're not a game agnostic to begin with.

The problem with 4th Ed. being not-D&D is that it will make D&D an out-of-print game, condemning it to a slow death. I like D&D, I don't want to see it as hard to find players for as, say, the (Mayfair) DC Heroes RPG, (FASA) Star Trek, or (WEG) Star Wars. (I've still got my books for those games, but it's awfully hard to put together a game playing them.) If Wizards is going to replace D&D 3.5, I want it to replace it with something in the three decade tradition of D&D, so the game I like continues to remain active.

Now, were 4e coming out as a new game, I would still not buy it, for reasons that boil down to the 4e Warlock (at least as presented by WotC so far). But I don't object to other people playing the game if they like it, so I don't see any point in writing the long essay on moral philosophy necessary to explain exactly why I so strenuously object to it.

 

[see]

Correct. And I repeat: GURPS does not have hit points.

You're saying GURPS would not have hit points if a character had, say, eighty GURPS hit points? That's, um, an interesting point of view.

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

You're saying GURPS would not have hit points if a character had, say, eighty GURPS hit points? That's, um, an interesting point of view.

And given not one of those eighty GURPS hit points would represent any kind of luck, skill, fatigue, or ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one, it's also a correct point of view.

 

[hong]

More precisely, a character with 80 GURPS hit points would roughly be something like a D&D character with 800 hit points, demonstrating that GURPS hit points do not function in terms the gameplay experience the same way as D&D hit points. D&D hit points facilitate the representation of a fight as a gradual attrition of resources, something that tends to complements very well the core D&D function of killing monsters and taking their stuff. GURPS hit points tend to be more realistic (insofar as a GURPS character with 80 GURPS hit points can be realistic at all), with superior defensive skill instead being represented as high Dodge/Parry/Block stats; this results in a very different gameplay experience. Of course, I would never say anything like that, because it would amount to explaining the joke, and I NEVER explain the joke.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

More precisely, a character with 80 GURPS hit points would roughly be something like a D&D character with 800 hit points, demonstrating that GURPS hit points do not function in terms the gameplay experience the same way as D&D hit points. D&D hit points facilitate the representation of a fight as a gradual attrition of resources, something that tends to complements very well the core D&D function of killing monsters and taking their stuff. GURPS hit points tend to be more realistic (insofar as a GURPS character with 80 GURPS hit points can be realistic at all), with superior defensive skill instead being represented as high Dodge/Parry/Block stats; this results in a very different gameplay experience. Of course, I would never say anything like that, because it would amount to explaining the joke, and I NEVER explain the joke.

Hmm. Somehow, this feels as if even you can show mercy, hong. I am shocked. And disappointed.

 

[hong]

I'm basking in the afterglow of whupping a couple of friends in Soul Calibur II. I won't let it go to my head.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

The problem with 4th Ed. being not-D&D is that it will make D&D an out-of-print game, condemning it to a slow death. I like D&D, I don't want to see it as hard to find players for as, say, the (Mayfair) DC Heroes RPG, (FASA) Star Trek, or (WEG) Star Wars.

What you mean is that you don't want it as hard to find other grognard players.

From what we've seen so far, 4e is the way to go if you actually want to help bring new players into the game.

If Wizards is going to replace D&D 3.5, I want it to replace it with something in the three decade tradition of D&D, so the game I like continues to remain active.

Now, were 4e coming out as a new game, I would still not buy it, for reasons that boil down to the 4e Warlock (at least as presented by WotC so far).

If you only intend to play in the 30 year tradition of the game, and you have no intention of bringing new players into the game, and you wouldn't buy 4e anyway, then why should WOTC make any effort to cater to you?

You guys are incredible.

 

[Shortman McLeod]

Oh? Page 16 of Basic Set: Characters.
Or if you're talking 3e, Compendium I, page 24.

I think hong's point is that GURPS does not have hit points in the same way that D&D has hit points. He's just being pedantic in how he's expressing his point is all.

EDIT: Oooops, Hong explained it. Nevermind.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

What you mean is that you don't want it as hard to find other grognard players.

From what we've seen so far, 4e is the way to go if you actually want to help bring new players into the game.

If you only intend to play in the 30 year tradition of the game, and you have no intention of bringing new players into the game, and you wouldn't buy 4e anyway, then why should WOTC make any effort to cater to you?

You guys are incredible.

Emphasis mine.

Someone update me: is there some reason that we're allowing posters like see to take it as axiomatic that 4E is fundamentally a different game than 3E and previous editions? I thought that was one of the topics being argued, not a foregone conclusion.

Before we go picking apart these posters' arguments, shouldn't we challenge them on the grounds first? Not that Wulf isn't totally right, but I hate to see people lending credibility to those kinds of assumptions by repeating them.

 

[Kraydak]

And given not one of those eighty GURPS hit points would represent any kind of luck, skill, fatigue, or ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one, it's also a correct point of view.

Actually, unless your GURPS character's strenght (in 3e, health) is 80, most of the 80 GURPS hp are purchased directly and as such, their representation as physical toughness, luck, skill etc... is a special effect that the player can choose.

(not that DnD hp need to represent skill, fatigue or the ability to turn a serious blow into a lesser one. in fact, DnD hp are most consistently represented by raw, supernatural toughness, luck or some other form of divine providence)