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Metallic Dragons: Unaligned!?

Malacoda

First Post
Fan boys can justify it anyway they want, but the BBEGs have taken over.

Disagreeing = fanboyism. Handy.

It's one thing to change game mechanic sacred cows, but they keep insisting on changing game flavor staples of the game and that's just evil/wrong/bad/silly. YMMV.

I long ago discarded the rigid alignment system for dragons, while also changing their naming scheme. Some have a general tendency towards good or evil (Fire dragons are often evil, sun dragons are often good, but neither is an absolute) and some had a tendency towards neutrality. So the new approach doesn't change much for me. It seems an odd thing to get worked up over to the point of calling it "silly."
 

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Nifft

Penguin Herder
In my 3.5e campaign world, most dragons were effectively Unaligned.

Now, a half-fiend shadow dragon spawned in the pits of Carceri? Evil.

But the others were generally happy just ruling people & owning lots of stuff, much like other strong, charismatic people & monsters.

Many dragons in my world acted as bankers (and slept in the "vault").

Cheers, -- N
 

The Human Target

Adventurer
99.9999% of the time you don't need stats for totally good/helpful monsters. Just like you don't need stats the vast majority of the time for the random town blacksmith or a deer.

Making metallic dragons less predictable and more adversarial makes them more useful.

More useful= more fun.

Flavor text sacred cows need(ed) to be examined and altered as necessary, just like mechanical ones.
 


Drkfathr1

First Post
Yep, nothing is good aligned now. Not even the stuff that fights evil. Like the Coatl.

Although they seem to expect PC's to be of Lawful Good or Good alignment, but they want you to fight and kill everything and take its stuff. And they want you to play formerly evil races like Tieflings, Gnolls, and Minotaurs.

Wierd. Its like there are multiple design philosophies at war with one another from within WOTC.

But I always make ALL of my dragons unaligned, even the Chromatics.

Easy to handwave away alignments, but it is still kind of jarring to see the good alignment stripped away from everything. Besides, if alignment really doesn't matter anymore, then what's wrong with having a few creatures that are good?
 

Nail

First Post
For plot reasons, the DM can make the DRAGON any alignment she wishes. So claiming that leaving metallic dragons unaligned makes them "more useful" doesn't wash with me.

As a game designer, you'd like to make your product both accessible and acceptable to the most people possible. It seems that by removing Good from the alignment descriptor of metallic dragons violates both of those product goals.
 

77IM

Explorer!!!
Supporter
Arcane Power, p.143, epic destinies - Archlich
I know. It was a joke.

It's as if the only two alignments are "Player Characters" and "Dungeon Master." So all the crazy creatures in the Monster Manual -- from the demon princes of the foulest abyss all the way down to the cute fluffy bunnies of the pleasant meadow -- have "Alignment: Dungeon Master," and could jump the PCs at any moment. Meanwhile anything in the player books -- from the Gleaming Champion of Justice all the way down to the Viledark Gloomshadow Necromaster has "Alignment: Player Characters," and is totally fine and acceptable for members of an adventuring party.

It's like they don't think we're smart enough to figure out how to use good-aligned creatures as foes. Magical domination, mistaken identity, corrupted virtue, insane ideologue, dramatic conflict of duty...

-- 77IM
 

Nikosandros

Golden Procrastinator
Actually, Clerics and Paladins are required to be an alignment that is compatible to their chosen Deity. (you can't be an evil servitor to a good god, but you can be unaligned...)

And Avengers must be the exact same alignment as their deity.
The alignment restriction for divine classes are meaningless. A character can change alignment without any penalties so, if you want, you can be a chaotic evil paladin of Bahamut.

I'm not really sure why alignment was left in the game... now that it's separated completely from game mechanics, they could have used something similar to the allegiances from d20 Modern.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Making metallic dragons less predictable and more adversarial makes them more useful.

More useful= more fun.

Flavor text sacred cows need(ed) to be examined and altered as necessary, just like mechanical ones.

Needed?

Out of the two MMs, there is one Lawful Good creature and one Good creature (as far as I could find). Two. Total.

So by more useful = more fun, you are indicating that unless the creature can be considered an adversary of the PCs, it is not a fun creature. Slaughter and killing are the most fun ways to encounter NPCs, is that it? And that was needed in game design? :eek:
 

Errantocracy

Explorer
Why do the 4e developers refuse to add Good Aligned creatures in their monster manuals? I can tell you why.

Actually, let me tell you why. Most, but not all, players tend to play good characters. Since the MM is meant to present monsters to the players to defeat (as opposed to allies) a good aligned monster is essentially a waste of paper for them. Now, there are some people that wish to play evil characters, or groups that wish to play evil parties, but there is no conceivable reason why evil characters cannot fight evil characters. In truth, there are occasions when good PCs might fight good creatures, but such a case would be rather exceptional, and creating monsters that can be used but very rarely for a majority of players seems a misuse of resources. Essentially, the inclusion of good-aligned "monsters" in the MM either forces a lower content of actually useful monsters, or else raises the cover price. Thus, the decision is one that benefits most players, while those who would prefer it the other way can easily change the alignment of creatures as they fit, rather than rail against the injustice being done to all because they find themselves in personal disagreement with the decision.

So by more useful = more fun, you are indicating that unless the creature can be considered an adversary of the PCs, it is not a fun creature. Slaughter and killing are the most fun ways to encounter NPCs, is that it? And that was needed in game design? :eek:
I didn't see this when I first posted. The MM is a book of combat statistics. If you're not planning on fighting on killing something . . . why do you want its combat statistics?

It's a rhetorical question, although conceivably you might answer that by suggesting the creature's possible use as an ally. In this case, however, I think the stats presented in the MM are not very useful for dealing with creatures as allies, since they are written with combat encounters against the PCs in mind. For example, if the PCs wanted to ride a metallic dragon, it might be more useful to stat it as a mount than a monster.

I suppose my point is that the MM is a book full of things to fight and kill, and that's what it should be. It's called the Monster's Manual after all, not the Allied Creature's Manual. I'm not saying that information on riding Metallic Dragons into combat against Chromatic Dragons would not be nice, but maybe it would be more at home in the PHB3 (along with information on riding Chromatic Dragons, since there are going to be Gith . . .).
 
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