Metallic Dragons: Unaligned!?

[lukelightning]

Slaughter and killing are the most fun ways to encounter NPCs, is that it?

Well, if you're not going to fight them, what's the point of including stats for good monsters? If they are just there as plot devices or NPCs, then the don't need stats; they can be interacted with via a skill challenge.

 

[Errantocracy]

The alignment restriction for divine classes are meaningless. A character can change alignment without any penalties so, if you want, you can be a chaotic evil paladin of Bahamut.

Actually, you are required to match the alignment of the deity you worship. While becoming chaotic evil would not effect your status as a Paladin, it would mean you could no longer claim to worship Bahamut (or at least you could claim to, but such claims would be meaningless). Mechanically, this means you would no longer satisfy the prerequisites for any feat that requires worshiping Bahamut. That is RAW. At the DMs discretion, you may also be required to select a new deity to worship, since the text states that they are the source of your powers, but that is probably more optional.

 

[chaotix42]

Fan boys can justify it anyway they want, but the BBEGs have taken over.

2 minute minor for instigating.

makes everything better.

 

[Nikosandros]

Mechanically, this means you would no longer satisfy the prerequisites for any feat that requires worshiping Bahamut.

Which is currently a grand total of 1 feat...

 

[Drkfathr1]

The notion that evil characters/creatures can't fight other evil creatures is totally incorrect.

Just because they're evil they're automatically going to get along and work together?

A party of evil PC's can have exactly the same adventures as a group of unaligned PC's (let's be honest here, few actually play good alignments). They just do things for different reasons.

"What? The evil warlord is attacking towns along the border? He's stepping on our turf! We're going to rule this land someday!"

"The dragon kidnapped the king's daughter? Hmmmm. We can eliminate a potential rival and get in good with the king..."

If anything, evil will probably fight against other evil more than any other alignment.

 

[77IM]

The MM is a book of combat statistics. If you're not planning on fighting on killing something . . . why do you want its combat statistics?

Already answered...

It's like they don't think we're smart enough to figure out how to use good-aligned creatures as foes. Magical domination, mistaken identity, corrupted virtue, insane ideologue, dramatic conflict of duty...

That was just off the top of my head. There are plenty of other reasons.

"You must prove your strength before I will help you!"
"This is a sacred place. I'm sorry, but if you don't turn back, I will be forced to attack you."
"Actually, my father was a red dragon, so while I inherited my mother's golden scales, I got his sense of unbridled arrogance and avarice. My, those are some nice magic items you have there..."



I can understand making the copper, iron, etc. dragons unaligned. I'll even concede angels (guys like the Angel of Death always struck me as morally ambiguous). And in the mythology, unicorns are sometimes portrayed as savage and ferocious. But the gold dragon (and later silver dragon) always stood out among the dragons precisely because they were good. The game setting is more boring without that.

-- 77IM

 

[pdboddy]

For plot reasons, the DM can make the DRAGON any alignment she wishes. So claiming that leaving metallic dragons unaligned makes them "more useful" doesn't wash with me.

As a game designer, you'd like to make your product both accessible and acceptable to the most people possible. It seems that by removing Good from the alignment descriptor of metallic dragons violates both of those product goals.

I don't see how two pages in which there are only a few debaters on either side equals "accessible and acceptable to the most people possible". So I don't see how making the metallic dragons unaligned violates your supposed goals of the Monster Manual 2.

Has anyone actually read the entries of the metallic dragons?

Seriously?

Try again. The unaligned alignment fits with what the new imaginings of the metallics. The silver dragons seem to be the nicest of the bunch. The gold dragons "show little interest in the concerns of other creatures" and have goals of "influencing a society". The copper dragon is "covetous by nature" and "seldom leaves a situation without gaining some benefit". Adamantine dragons "assume leadership of any creatures in their territory". Iron dragons "do not have allies so much as dupes".

Do they seem like the good guys, all shiny and ready to come to the world's aid?

Maybe, if it's in their interest.

 

[Bumbles]

The notion that evil characters/creatures can't fight other evil creatures is totally incorrect.

If you're looking at the sentence I think you are, I believe that's a typo, as it's quite awkward if it were meant literally, but adding a "not" to it makes it flow quite readily.

But you'd have to ask Cyfer about it.

Has anyone actually read the entries of the metallic dragons?

Seriously?

Yes, I did look at the description. I didn't even look at the alignment entry when perusing the book, never really cared about that at all, as it's so preposterously easy to change anyway.

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually, let me tell you why. Most, but not all, players tend to play good characters. Since the MM is meant to present monsters to the players to defeat (as opposed to allies) a good aligned monster is essentially a waste of paper for them.

The good heroes with opposing goals to the good monsters has been a scenario staple of DND since its inception.

I remember a LOT of adventures with not only good PCs vs. good NPCs, but also good NPCs vs. good NPCs. Convincing the two good temples to not be at war (tricked into doing so by an evil cult) because it weakens the kingdom was an excellent set of adventures.

Just because someone is good does not mean that they see eye to eye with every other creature that is also good.

Non-good Angels? All of them? Come on. WotC designers should sit down and read Book of Exalted Deeds.

 

[Flipguarder]

wow this is a simple topic that has been convoluted.

Unaligned means that they inherently have no alignment. This means that this species is not restricted to any alignment.

What this reveals more than anything is that evil has more sway in its cosmology than good, due to all chromatic dragons being evil and all metallic dragons being unaligned.

It's not like you are restricted to use Wotc's alignments anyway. I would say they are the second most flexible stat for monsters behind only languages. They have very little bearing on combat.