Metallic Dragons: Unaligned!?

Stogoe

First Post
There will still be some dragons (and fey, etc) that want to talk to the PCs, and there will still be some that want to eat them. And sometimes it'll be the same ones.
What the change from All Good to Unaligned does, in essence, is it makes you deal with antagonists as individuals. Your enemies are forced to have a motivation beyond "Well, this Evil moustache they slapped on me is rather fun to twirl around my finger, I have to admit." Tearing out "Color Coded for Your Convenience" makes the game more nuanced, and leads to better storytelling as a whole.

The Monster Manual is not a Bestiary of things that exist in the Points of Light setting. It is a repository of Combat Encounters. This fact is constantly and belligerently ignored by the "They Changed It Now It's Dumb" contingent.
 

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Stogoe

First Post
I've never before seen an argument that slaughtering Neutral monsters is a good and productive endeavor for adventurers.
What about Zapp Brannigan?
"What makes a good man go neutral? Lust for gold? Power?
Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?"
 

korjik

First Post
What the change from All Good to Unaligned does, in essence, is it makes you deal with antagonists as individuals.
How? Most players expect backstabbing, treachery, and other nastiness from pretty much anything they come across. If you add the fact that the rules set means that the creatures in the encounter are not good, they could be less concerned about morality.

You can also use good creatures as a way to make the players squirm. Finding out that the dragon you are sent to kill is an unambigously good metallic dragon makes the players really reconsider what they are doing.
Your enemies are forced to have a motivation beyond "Well, this Evil moustache they slapped on me is rather fun to twirl around my finger, I have to admit." Tearing out "Color Coded for Your Convenience" makes the game more nuanced, and leads to better storytelling as a whole.
I give Orcs more motivation than that. Pretty irrelevant tho, since most players generally completely miss or misinterpret nuance. Knowing some monsters are supposed to be good creates a passive background to the game without DM effort. Without that inherent background, there is no reason to even try to think about wether you should just kill everything.
The Monster Manual is not a Bestiary of things that exist in the Points of Light setting. It is a repository of Combat Encounters. This fact is constantly and belligerently ignored by the "They Changed It Now It's Dumb" contingent.

Funny, I thought it was a book of stats for monsters. You know, a manual for the monsters in Dungeons and Dragons. I didnt know that you were just supposed to only use the encounters in the MM. I thought that the rules for making combat encounters were in the DMG.
 

GenghisDon

First Post
I can't say it bothers me. I have never been a big fan of the colour coded dragons, the metalic ones even less so. While I can't say I love them(adamantine dragon? why?), they are more useful to me untied to any particular moral code. Stat wise, they seem better done than the MM1 dragons, but i won't really know untill my players fight a few.
 

Zaran

Adventurer
The funny thing is ... I don't really care about adding Adamantine and Iron dragons to the Metallics. they make more sense than Brass and Bronze alloyed dragons. It just bothers me that they decided that we didn't need good monsters and changed them all to creatures that don't take a stand on issues of good and evil. Also "Unaligned" doesn't mean "Any".

I would have been ok with it if the alignment entry said "Tends towards Lawful Good although Good and Unaligned are possible." I honestly think that they shouldn't have cut out all the background story that the prior editions had. Their philosophy should have been "if it makes the book longer but more expensive , so be it." It's information that I , as a GM, appreciates when i'm creating my campaigns.
 

Bumbles

First Post
Also "Unaligned" doesn't mean "Any".

I am not entirely sure of this. Certain creatures, like Angels, are Any in the MM1, but Unaligned in the MM2. Makes me wonder.

It's information that I , as a GM, appreciates when i'm creating my campaigns.

It's often information that I completely ignore and find somewhat distasteful to see included.

But then, I felt the same way when seeing the description of Elven "aging" in 2e. Blech! No, I will not borrow that Tolkienism.
 

Stogoe

First Post
Funny, I thought it was a book of stats for monsters. You know, a manual for the monsters in Dungeons and Dragons. I didnt know that you were just supposed to only use the encounters in the MM. I thought that the rules for making combat encounters were in the DMG.
You're deliberately misunderstanding. It's a book of stats for combat encounters. Stats don't exist in the game world. The Monster Manual isn't a book of "and this exists, and this exists, and this exists and it lives over there in that cave." It is not a coherent or complete list of creatures that exist in the world. It's a list of possibilities for a DM to run combat encounters.

If a silver dragon shows up in your campaign and your party parlays with it and they never roll initiative or draw swords, you will never need to crack open a monster manual for that silver dragon. The dragon exists in your campaign, and yet you do not need the combat statistics in any way. It might as well have not had stats at all.
 

Flipguarder

First Post
I am not entirely sure of this(unaligned =/= any). Certain creatures, like Angels, are Any in the MM1, but Unaligned in the MM2. Makes me wonder.
This right here kinda of screws the whole discussion we've been having up to now IMHO.

Unless its errata'ed one way or another I choose to believe that unaligned is a nuetral-ish form of any if that makes any sense.

It just makes sense for too many things.
 

Unaligned != Any. WotC is king of the Keyword game. Any would mean, like PC races, they are completely flexible from individual to individual. Were as unaligned means they behave as suggested in the "Unaligned" description in the player's handbook. Groups can be "Any" but individuals have to be something.

Alignments in general have little to no purpose in comparison to ages past. As such that means that most of the previous flavor is right out the window. The problem is... WotC has done NOTHING to replace that gap. And the little flavor it has created is disjointed at best.

I agree with K-Dad that if it wasn't broken why fix it? I also agree that if you're going to create the mythical divide between all dragons (Io split into Bahamut and Tiamat) then why not follow that theology through?

By removing the paragraphs of description on creature's nature and behavior and reducing everything down to one or two sentences of description the alignment becomes ever more important to people new to Roleplaying and DnD. Unaligned can be very engrossing and nuanced if given the time, effort and breadth to be so. But when since monster details are pretty much non-existent it's another random thing to fight.

And considering that 99% of the stats presented in the MM are combat oriented it is absurd to think that anyone will not assume a conflict normally leads to a fight.

When I looked at a unicorn, demon, devil, dragon or kobold in the previous editions I didn't just see an enemy to encounter. I saw an actual creature. A member of a fantasy world that could be intrinsically added to the storyline of our game. Now I'm not given that kind of assistance.

When you look at the books as published you cannot discuss those books inherent value (or lack there of) while arguing any house changes. You have to keep the confinements of the arguement to the information as presented. And the information that is presented has be altered in a number of ways that serve no diagetic benefit (or even purpose).

I will also argue that working a Lawful Good antagonist into a story with mostly good party members is a feat of epic proportions that is not only entertaining but unforgettable. When I was a sophmore in high school I played under a DM that forever tainted my trust in Solars, solely because once the story was all said and done I realized that the moral dilemma presented wouldn't have allowed the epitome of Lawful Good to do anything other than what it did. And in turn we had to stop it... for the lesser good.

I agree that the alignment system is antiquated in its own way. In fact, in more character based storytelling it drives me crazy. But it was perfectly integrated into the world of the game. Everyday people knew that there were forces of Law, Chaos, Good and Evil. There were entire planes dedicated to them for (insert diety name)'s sake.

Now they say that their new DnD is pillars of light in the darkness. Show me one. Anyone one printed in a core book. I want to know what it is that the PCs have to live up to. What is that keeps their hopes alive at night, cause a votive to their god isn't going to do it forever. What creature will they see in the wilderness that makes them want to keep fighting for good?
 
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Stogoe

First Post
I agree with K-Dad that if it wasn't broken why fix it?
It was broken. Your nostalgia just doesn't let you recognize that fact.

Now they say that their new DnD is pillars of light in the darkness. Show me one. Anyone one printed in a core book. I want to know what it is that the PCs have to live up to. What is that keeps their hopes alive at night, cause a votive to their god isn't going to do it forever. What creature will they see in the wilderness that makes them want to keep fighting for good?
You! You yourself are the candle in the darkness! That's the whole point! If there's an elder paragon of good next door, why in the hells would you go out and save the world yourself?
 

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