Metamagic Feats tweaking

[Darkness]

Very well then, guys.

 

[StAlda]

I'm sorry, to all. I'm just having a very bad day and been a bit testy as a result.

Does someone need a hug?

 

[Crothian]

Yes I'm opposed to lower level spells in higher level slots.

Why? I can understand in earlier editions, but now there are attack spells that are 2nd level that are better then the first level ones, and 4th level attack spells better then the 3rd level ones.

As to your suggestions, it makes meta magic feats much easier to use as people don't have to wait till higher levels to get the spells levels required in the main rules. THis also makes meta magic much better for sorcerers since they have more spell slots.

 

[StAlda]

OK folks, it was something that just popped into my head and I threw it against the forum to see what would stick. It turned into a flame session, then moderated, and before that everyone asking me to give the idea legs or explain my motivation. I can't defend it, I've never played it - let alone know all the ramifications. That's why I tossed it up here.

If you were to take a poll on what D20 subsystem has the most house rules applied to it, I'll bet metamagic comes up first. Jim Butler created a variant metamagic system so his spell lists would work. (He could not print out his 1st level spells on a chart that he could mark the spells he had memorized because they might not be in 1st level spell slots.) I believe Monte and Mr. Reynolds have their own variants too.


How about this, metamagic spells cost XP. let's say 100xSpell Level AdjustmentxSpell Level. So to quicken a spell would cost 400 XP for a 1st level spell, and 2000 XP for a 5th level spell.

hello, anyone, Bueller?

 

[StAlda]

Why? I can understand in earlier editions, but now there are attack spells that are 2nd level that are better then the first level ones, and 4th level attack spells better then the 3rd level ones.

As to your suggestions, it makes meta magic feats much easier to use as people don't have to wait till higher levels to get the spells levels required in the main rules. THis also makes meta magic much better for sorcerers since they have more spell slots.

good point on sorcerers. see, that's why I'm here.

 

[Thanee]

I really have no idea, why you do not let casters use higher level slots for lower level spells... these spells are typically a lot weaker, how can this be abusive? This house rule is especially harsh for sorcerers, who only know very few spells. You should double the spells known for spontaneous casters then to make them worthwhile to play under those rules...


Anyways, you could easily make your system work this way...

Add a limitation, that you cannot cast a spell of a level - including the metamagic spell level modifier - higher than the highest level you can actually cast. So, a 11th level wizard could cast a quickened 2nd level spell, but not a quickened 3rd level spell or higher.

Also, change the cost to a spell slot of a level equal to the metamagic modifier, for example, "Quicken Spell" requires a 4th level slot.

A wizard (prepared caster) would have to prepare the metamagic feats like spells and can use them on any prepared spell, as long as the above limit isn't broken. Then wizards can use the feats a bit better (more flexible application), but still have to prepare them. I'd also require a move action to prepare the metamagic feat in addition to the standard action (or whatever it is) to cast the spell (this replaces the casting time increase for spontaneous casters, but applies to all), after spending that action, the next spell you cast will be metamagicked appropriately (if it doesn't break the above limitation), but you must "use" it during the current (or following) turn, otherwise it is wasted. A sorcerer (spontaneous caster) already benefits from it in a different way, as Crothian pointed out above. So both have their share then.

This way, there is also no abuse with breaking the spell level cap (which can get ugly pretty fast), and the cost is pretty reasonable, too.


One thing you have to think about is magic items and meta-metamagic feats and abilities (like Divine Metamagic, Instant Metamagic).

Also Heighten Spell and Fortify Spell could be a little problem for wizards, maybe it would be ok to allow then to use only part of the prepared metamagic feat (but use up the full slot, of course)... this means... like prepare a 4th level Heighten Spell (+4 spell levels), but if you want to heighten a 4th level spell to 6th level (the highest you can cast), then you can still use it, it's just that the other +2 are wasted.


I'm tinkering with a different approach, based on the UA variant, giving each metamagic feat charges per day (number depends on how powerful the feat is).

Bye
Thanee

 

[ender_wiggin]

Could you perhaps give a specific example of a situation where you weren't comfortable with what your players were doing? I think that would help clear this up. Frankly, I don't see a reason why your players would stack their second level spells like that. If you could give us an example I think the forum would be more informed to help you solve your problem.

For example, exactly what second level spells were they using? There are second level spells out there have much more damage potential than a set of magic missiles....that's the point of the having second level spells. I think you have isolated the problem to the metamagic ruleset, when in fact, the problem lies somewhere else.

And if comes to the worst, you play your emergency card: be honest and talk to them about it.

 

[FireLance]

If I can summarize the problem (and please correct me if I am wrong), StAlda has a house rule that lower level spells cannot be cast from or prepared in higher-level spell slots. StAlda's players have been using the metamagic system go get around this limitation, e.g. by using a 2nd-level slot to cast a still magic missile. StAlda does not like the idea that certain levels of spells (e.g. 2nd and 4th) can be used to cast offensive spells because historically, spells at these levels have generally been utility spells, and he is trying to maintain that flavor.

In my view, changing the metamagic system only addresses the symptom, not the actual problem. A simpler and more direct way to do this is to impose a cap on the number of offensive spells that can be prepared (say, no more than half the spell slots in each level), or to have a rule that 2nd and 4th (or whatever) level spell slots cannot be used to prepare offensive spells.

 

[Joker]

I don't know if this variant rule already exists but what about letting everyone be able to metamagic without having it cost a higher level slot, a feat or more time to cast? Instead it would have some other cost. A hefty experience cost or special components.

 

[Thanee]

If I can summarize the problem (and please correct me if I am wrong), StAlda has a house rule that lower level spells cannot be cast from or prepared in higher-level spell slots. StAlda's players have been using the metamagic system go get around this limitation, e.g. by using a 2nd-level slot to cast a still magic missile. StAlda does not like the idea that certain levels of spells (e.g. 2nd and 4th) can be used to cast offensive spells because historically, spells at these levels have generally been utility spells, and he is trying to maintain that flavor.

In my view, changing the metamagic system only addresses the symptom, not the actual problem.

That seems right.

But if he insists, I guess the version in my above post would work fairly well.

Sidenote: I did the same getting around limitations in Temple of Elemental Evil (the computer game), where you also cannot prepare lower level spells in higher level slots... kinda sucks to be a sorcerer there without Heighten Spell.

Bye
Thanee