Metamagic Feats tweaking

[StAlda]

I just had a quick thought - and so I'm tossing out on to the board.

I never liked the idea of metamagic feats taking higher level spell slots. I have had players quasi-abuse this by filling there 2nd level spell slots with damage producing 1st level spells that were silenced or stilled or whatever. This also happen to 4th level spell slots for 3rd level spells.

I once before kicked out the idea of - Example: Maximize costing a fourth level slot as opposed to four levels higher. But it was quickly pointed out that at high levels this approach would fall apart.

so now the new idea. I really want metamagic feats to take up spell slots and for the feated spell to remain in its normal spell slot. here's the crunch of what I'm thinking:

Still/Silent/Enlarge/Extend  spell slot 2 levels less than spell effected
Empower                      spell slot 1 level less than spell effected
Maximize/Widen               spell slot of the same level as spell effected
Quicken                      spell slot 1 level higher than spell effected

Comments?

 

[Quickleaf]

Hmm. Using your system, if my wizard casts a fireball (3rd level spell to start) and quickens it, are you suggesting the wizard lose both the 3rd level spell AND a 4th level spell of their choice. Your writing isn't clear to me, so is this what you mean?

 

[StAlda]

Hmm. Using your system, if my wizard casts a fireball (3rd level spell to start) and quickens it, are you suggesting the wizard lose both the 3rd level spell AND a 4th level spell of their choice. Your writing isn't clear to me, so is this what you mean?

That is correct.

 

[ender_wiggin]

Wait a minute. What happens if I cast a stilled magic missile. Is there no penalty?

If that's correct, why would anyone wave their arms anymore after taking "still spell" if stilling the spell is the same as just casting it....

 

[CRGreathouse]

I never liked the idea of metamagic feats taking higher level spell slots. I have had players quasi-abuse this by filling there 2nd level spell slots with damage producing 1st level spells that were silenced or stilled or whatever. This also happen to 4th level spell slots for 3rd level spells.

I'm trying to figure out your motivation for making the change before I offer suggestions or thoughts. What makes this quasi-abuse?

 

[zoroaster100]

I also am curious as to why you think using up a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell is abuse. Aren't second level spells supposed to be more powerful than 1st level spells, and same with fourth level compared to third? If someone wants to use a second or fourth level slot to cause damage, couldn't they just research a more powerful form of magic missile or fireball that does more damage or has greater range or area of effect or some other greater effect to justify the higher level?

 

[StAlda]

Wait a minute. What happens if I cast a stilled magic missile. Is there no penalty?

If that's correct, why would anyone wave their arms anymore after taking "still spell" if stilling the spell is the same as just casting it....

it would cost a cantrip, since there is no -1 level spell

 

[StAlda]

I'm trying to figure out your motivation for making the change before I offer suggestions or thoughts. What makes this quasi-abuse?

barring researching a new 2nd level or 4th level spell.....
first off, I have a house rule that lower level spells can't be put in higher level slots. Since 1st edition, 2nd and 4th level spells (generally) have been utility spells, but now they can be offensive spells too, by putting lower damage producing spells in those slots. I don't like that. That's my motive. Thus the quasi in quasi-abuse, it isn't abuse - I just don't like it. So this isn't for everybody, I'm just wonder if anyone can see any apparent holes and any suggestions.

A wizard has a finite number of 1st level spell slots. But when metamagic feats are applied to them they become a higher level, which means you have MORE 1st level spells. I have had players not use metamagic feats for their intended use, but just to have MORE damage producing spells.

 

[AeroDm]

Well, one potential landmind is that a quickened fireball is a 7th level spell under the core rules. This means that no one can cast it until 13th caster level. Under your system you can cast it at 7th caster level.

 

[FireLance]

barring researching a new 2nd level or 4th level spell.....
first off, I have a house rule that lower level spells can't be put in higher level slots. Since 1st edition, 2nd and 4th level spells (generally) have been utility spells, but now they can be offensive spells too, by putting lower damage producing spells in those slots. I don't like that. That's my motive. Thus the quasi in quasi-abuse, it isn't abuse - I just don't like it. So this isn't for everybody, I'm just wonder if anyone can see any apparent holes and any suggestions.

A wizard has a finite number of 1st level spell slots. But when metamagic feats are applied to them they become a higher level, which means you have MORE 1st level spells. I have had players not use metamagic feats for their intended use, but just to have MORE damage producing spells.

It seems to me that the best way to solve your problem is to simply limit the number of offensive spells that a spellcaster can prepare or cast in a day (say, no more than 50% of his spell slots), instead of messing with the metamagic system. It has the best chance of achieving the desired effect. Or are you also planning to ban all offensive spells of 2nd and 4th level?