Metamagic Feats tweaking

[the Jester]

Er, you do realize that by the rules as written you can prepare a lower level spell in a higher level slot without using metamagic, right? So if a wizard wants to he can cast magic missile with a 9th-level slot.

I suspect you object to this too?

As to the system- I see two potential issues. First, this really cuts down on the number of spells available to a metamagic user, since each spell now requires two slots to cast. This reduces the usefulness of metamagic slots.

Second, this system still allows for some pretty extreme spellcasting if you're willing to spend the slots on it. A 17th-level caster could cast a quickened empowered maximized horrid wilting and another horrid wilting in the same round, for instance.

 

[StAlda]

Er, you do realize that by the rules as written you can prepare a lower level spell in a higher level slot without using metamagic, right? So if a wizard wants to he can cast magic missile with a 9th-level slot.

I suspect you object to this too?

As to the system- I see two potential issues. First, this really cuts down on the number of spells available to a metamagic user, since each spell now requires two slots to cast. This reduces the usefulness of metamagic slots.

Second, this system still allows for some pretty extreme spellcasting if you're willing to spend the slots on it. A 17th-level caster could cast a quickened empowered maximized horrid wilting and another horrid wilting in the same round, for instance.

That would cost a 9th, 2 8ths, and a 7th. His 8th and 9th levels are done, so he can't cast the second horrid wilting. That's a lot of spell slots for an instant 150 hit points. I hope you don't have anymore big battles that day.

Yes I'm opposed to lower level spells in higher level slots.

I don't think it cuts down the number of spells available to metamagic anymore than the current system where you're limited by the number of higher level spell slots.

 

[Michael Morris]

Yes I'm opposed to lower level spells in higher level slots.

The system is tested, is balanced, and works. If you don't like it - that's your problem. But your proposal is very unbalanced and poorly thought through.

Many of the more powerful metamagic effects can be - when combined with the right high level spells - unbalancing. Time Stop for starters - there's a REASON it takes an epic character with at least a 13th level slot to quicken this spell, let alone maximize it. Same applies to meteor swarm.

 

[StAlda]

The system is tested, is balanced, and works. If you don't like it - that's your problem. But your proposal is very unbalanced and poorly thought through.

Many of the more powerful metamagic effects can be - when combined with the right high level spells - unbalancing. Time Stop for starters - there's a REASON it takes an epic character with at least a 13th level slot to quicken this spell, let alone maximize it. Same applies to meteor swarm.

Even WotC has said the metamagic system is broken, they just didn't want to get into redesigning it for 3.5 (a minor revision). Your reply is poorly thought through and offensive. Your opinions are no longer needed here. I guess social skills are not a requirement for front-end design.

 

[Michael Morris]

Even WotC has said the metamagic system is broken, they just didn't want to get into redesigning it for 3.5 (a minor revision). Your reply is poorly thought through and offensive. Your opinions are no longer needed here. I guess social skills are not a requirement for front-end design.

Any further improvements to the system would require a move to spell points.

As to my social skills, no they aren't a required part of my job. My lack of them are the reason I'm not a moderator. And the fact that I'm not a moderator is the only reason you still have an account after that remark.

EDIT - Points, not slots.

 

[StAlda]

Any further improvements to the system would require a move to spell points.

As to my social skills, no they aren't a required part of my job. My lack of them are the reason I'm not a moderator. And the fact that I'm not a moderator is the only reason you still have an account after that remark.

EDIT - Points, not slots.

I can't beleive I'm in a flame war with an Admin. Way to go ENWorld!
So I have to like what you say and how you say it, or ENWorld isn't for me?

Did you read the title of this forum? It's called "HOUSE RULES"

 

[Fieari]

I look at your system and personally reel back in horror. In some areas, that's a HUGE expense for metamagic. Almost worth it to just plain get rid of metamagic in that case... in other areas, that's a HUGE boost for metamagic, and as a DM I'd be terrified to see all the abuses that could be wrought with QUICKEN taking up a spell level only one higher. I mean... casting a spell as a free action. A FREE ACTION. I have a Wizard player (at high levels) who loves doing timestop + quickened spell combos. What he wouldn't give to have a cheaper quicken, or a quicken that can be applied to 8th level spells. Yikes! Just think about that for a moment. A quickened 8th level spell!

I find absolutely nothing wrong with lower level spells using higher level spots. In fact, I encourage this behavior when I run games, presenting them with a plethora of situations in which a low level spell would be useful, more than they have lvl1 slots, and then once they start burning higher level slots, bring up an encounter where a saved higher slot would have been very nice indeed. Not everyday, of course, but every so often its nice to stretch your players a bit.

I just can't see the imbalance of using a higher slot than normal. It's not like the levels are labeled "Level Magic Missile", "Level Utility Stuff", "Level Fireball", "Level More Useful Utility Stuff" etc.

The reason you aren't getting help for your problem is that you're asking "Is this fair and balanced" and presenting a situation which ruins an area where many of us believe things are balanced already. Before you get help in this area, I think you really need to devote some time convincing us that you have a legitamate problem that needs to be houseruled, or elsewise find someone who already agrees with you and also has enough knowledge about game balance to be able to help divert future problems you might see.

If you could put down the flaming vorpal swords for just a moment, could you present some more arguments for why you think this is needed? Perhaps you could go by describing how your campaign currently runs, and perhaps how it differs from many of the assumptions the core books make about how a game is played. When we understand how your game is different from the game we play, maybe we can extrapolate and help you out a bit more.

(But regardless of the game you play, a quicken spell that only costs the spell level plus one higher is crazy, man. CER-AY-ZEE. Do this against my EXTREME cautions)

 

[Darkness]

Michael: Dude. You didn't just write that. I must be hallucinating. You really should have used 'report post' instead. Seriously.
Check your PMs.

StAlda: Personal attacks (social skills/front-end design) are not allowed here. You've been here for at least 10 months so you ought to know the rules. If you don't, go read them now.

If someone has a comment or question regarding what I said, PM or e-mail me.

 

[StAlda]

Michael: Dude. You didn't just write that. I must be hallucinating. You really should have used 'report post' instead. Seriously.
Check your PMs.

StAlda: Personal attacks (social skills/front-end design) are not allowed here. You've been here for at least 10 months so you ought to know the rules. If you don't, go read them now.

If someone has a comment or question regarding what I said, PM or e-mail me.

True and point taken. It was mostly push back. Sorry for the emotional release.

 

[Michael Morris]

I'm sorry, to all. I'm just having a very bad day and been a bit testy as a result.