Metamagic Rod + your own feat

[0-hr]

Can a sorceror cast a Fireball spell, channel it through a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize and THEN use his own Empower feat on it?


In other words, can the spell count as 3rd level when going through the rod, and then be bumped up to 5th level after the rod has done its thing?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Can a sorceror cast a Fireball spell, channel it through a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize and THEN use his own Empower feat on it?

The rules aren't clear on it, but I say no. There's no specific ordering, so you can't technically prove that the rod goes first or not, and it's really not a decision that's explicitly granted to the spellcaster. The DM could rule it that way, but then it creates abuses like you note here.

 

[Pinotage]

The rules aren't clear on it, but I say no. There's no specific ordering, so you can't technically prove that the rod goes first or not, and it's really not a decision that's explicitly granted to the spellcaster. The DM could rule it that way, but then it creates abuses like you note here.

Well, the description of the metamagic rod states that it can be used in conjuction with metamagic feats. I see no reason why that should not apply to sorcerers.

Pinotage

 

[0-hr]

I see no reason why that should not apply to sorcerers.
Pinotage

That's not the question. The question is whether you can explicitly order the application of metamagic feats.

 

[frankthedm]

The rods have limits on how high of a level they can effect. The cheaper ones cant help higher levels spells.

I'd say the caster has to apply thier adjustments first and pumping the spell too high will prevent the rod from working.

The rules text is not explicit.

Metamagic Rods
Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses.

Lesser and Greater Metamagic Rods
Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The rules aren't clear on it, but I say no. There's no specific ordering, so you can't technically prove that the rod goes first or not, and it's really not a decision that's explicitly granted to the spellcaster. The DM could rule it that way, but then it creates abuses like you note here.

I don't think it is really an abuse - at least not more than the Metamagic Rods provide in the first place.

According to the rules, a metamagic spell is still treated as its normal level for all purposes except for the spell slot being used (exception is Heighten Spell) -Saving Throws, Globe of Invulnerability and so on are still based on the original level. So I'd think the Metamagic Rod would base its effectiveness on the normal level of the spell. (Provided the level was not increased via Heighten Spell, following this argumentation )

 

[Thanee]

Yes, you can, since the level of the spell is not changed, when you use a metamagic feat (other than Heighten Spell) on it. When you use Heighten Spell on it, you cannot heighten the spell beyond the maximum the rod can handle.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Infiniti2000]

Yes, you can, since the level of the spell is not changed, when you use a metamagic feat (other than Heighten Spell) on it.

It's not so clear as that. Note the following quotes, with my emphasis:

Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell
A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.

This one notes that although a metamagic feat affects the slot and not the level, when multiple metamagic feats are in play (it's not specific to only natural feats), the spell's "level" changes are cumulative. IMO, this is sufficient to say no, but I would agree it's not a slam dunk.

Magic Items and Metamagic Spells
With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.

Although this is somewhat of a tangent, it shows that the limits of a spell level are applied to items (at least potion and wand creation). I'd say that this is shows a certain restriction intended in other items that function off spell level.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Since the rods are use activated, you're already casting the spell when it activates. Your feats are added to the spell when you pick the slot to use and the feat(s) to apply. The rod affects it after you do. Lesser Maximize Rod won't work on the Empowered Fireball, because it is trying to modify a 5th level slotted spell, and it only affects up to 3rd lvl slotted spells. It would work on a Magic Missile that you empowered, then used the rod, because that is a 3rd level slotted spell it's acting upon. Metamagic Rods are half-munchkin already, you're trying to push them fully into munchkinville.

Before you say it isn't defined when use-activated is actually used, when was the last time you were affected by a potion before you drank it?

 

[Thanee]

...the spell's "level" changes are cumulative.

Of course they are, but at the end of the day, the spell is still not a 6th (or whatever) level spell, but a modified 3rd-level spell, that has about the power of a 6th-level spell.

You pay all costs involved, you do not skip any, if you use the metamagic rod in addition here (considering, that the uses/day and price are the metamagic rods cost, it's probably not enough of a cost, but that's a different issue).

There's also a quote in the metamagic rod's description about this:

A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

Lesser and Greater Metamagic Rods: Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower.

Bye
Thanee