D&D 5E Meteor Swarm Vs. All other spells & DMG's spell creation guidelines

Meteor Swarm Vs. DMG's spell creation guidelines


Changing spells doesn't change CR, but changing the amount of Challenge presented does change the CR.

If the creature is capable of easily killing the whole party, then that is a beyond-deadly encounter, and it's worth a ton of experience if they survive it.
No, it's quite clear that changing the spells on an NPC caster for the same class spells and same level of spell = same CR and thus same XP. On the other hand, I'm kinda thinking that perhaps that line about swapping spells was ALSO written before they changed thedesign paradigm on 9th level spells.
 

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No, it's quite clear that changing the spells on an NPC caster for the same class spells and same level of spell = same CR and thus same XP. On the other hand, I'm kinda thinking that perhaps that line about swapping spells was ALSO written before they changed thedesign paradigm on 9th level spells.

Where did you read that? Every paragraph I have seen in the DMG says "if you change the damage, change the CR"
 
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Monster Manual p. 342 Customizing NPCs. While it calls out both changing weapons and adding magic items can adjust CR due to damage paramaters...

Spell Swaps: One way to customize an NPC spellcaster is to replace one or more of its spells. You can substitute any spell on the NPC's spell list with a different spell of the same level from the same spell list. Swapping spells in this manner doesn't alter an NPC's challenge rating.
This is on the page opposite the smug looking CR 12 archmage who can cast 9th level spells.

That also seems to me kinda out of line with the rest of the system, unless at one time each spell levels were treated as damage of XX. Also maybe that's why the spellcasting section of the CR rules loop back to each other.
 
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Step 1: Cast wish to duplicate the simulacrum spell without its expensive material component. Step 2: Cast true polymorph the following day to transform your simulacrum into an ancient brass dragon - permanently. Step 3: Profit.

Trust me, meteor swarm is child's play compared to the horrors wizards can unleash with their other 9th level spells.
 

No, it's quite clear that changing the spells on an NPC caster for the same class spells and same level of spell = same CR and thus same XP. On the other hand, I'm kinda thinking that perhaps that line about swapping spells was ALSO written before they changed thedesign paradigm on 9th level spells.

This is why you have a DM who knows what they're doing. This isn't Magic the Gathering or League of Legends or Professional Baseball. It's not a competitive game where the DM is looking to maximize the damage output of his creatures, knowing that the party will be insta-killed by the CR 12 opponent. It's a story-telling and role-playing game where the job of the DM is to craft an enjoyable experience for her or his players.

Here are a bunch of other things that are also "quite clear" using the rules:

1) A dozen CR 2 intellect devourers should be absolutely no match for a 20th level barbarian PC, so the player has no excuses for not being able to handle them.
2) Every enemy wizard should always use the contagion spell, and they should always select the one disease that applies a stun-lock to the target when they're damaged.
3) Monsters should always take the time to coup a dropped opponent. Every creature with an 8+ Intelligence knows about healing spells. Don't even give the cleric a chance.

Now, all of these things could be "balanced" out of the rules. But I don't want to see any of them vanish. Sometimes, a DM needs that low CR creature that freaks out the most powerful fighter in the land. Sometimes he needs the enemy wizard to use a stun-lock disease to create tension in a battle, whereas other times he needs a different type of disease to craft a compelling story. Sometimes he wants to use the threat of the coup-de-grace in battle to create tension; sometimes he wants to actually carry through on it to force the party to consider options for revivify or raise dead.

Meteor swarm is exactly the same. It's ridiculous to suggest that there's no change to the CR of an archmage by swapping in that spell. 40d6 will wipe out a 10th level party in a heartbeat. However, that doesn't need to be codified in the rules. There's a valuable place for a 9th level spell of that power, so it shouldn't be nerfed for damage. The current CR 12 archmage write-up seems okay, given the listed spells (so, no need to change the CR).

The DM decides whether, for story reasons, he wants the archmage to have a meteor swarm. if he does, the DM should have a legitimate reason for doing so: either it's going to be cast on a non-PC target to scare the party, or the intent is that an intelligent party should be able to survive or avoid it (they've quested for the amulet of meteor protection, or they have an anti-magic shell, or similar), or maybe the story purpose is to kill the party... then run the next few sessions for their ghosts as they heroically seek to escape the Lands of the Dead... and return for vengeance against the wizard that killed them!

As a final comment: this point isn't restricted to meteor swarm. It's about how you run the game in general. If you know the party can't handle a meteor swarm and it'll simply end the campaign, don't use that spell. If the party is all non-casters, don't use forcecage or wall of force. If the party has no missile options beyond 30' range, don't use flying manticores. If the players have all decided on Charisma-challenged meat-heads, don't force them to play a political campaign where every failed skill check could result in their execution.

As a player option, meteor swarm is fine. It's the ultimate expression of pure magical damage output. It's not out-of-line with other classes. It feels suitably epic.
 

A while ago while randomly scrolling through spells I saw this and WTFed. Just to see how powerful this spell is I decided to calculate how much damage it would do if there was a creature in every 5' square hit (maybe its used against an advancing army).
The AVERAGE damage to if they all failed the save was 80,640 damage. Or 40,320 if they all saved.
This wasn't able even if taking into account the evocation wizard. He could deal a total of 138,240 damage from a single meteor swarm!
NOTE: I'm not 100% certain on the the creatures in a 40' radius, the above calculations were made assuming 144 creatures.
 
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No, it's quite clear that changing the spells on an NPC caster for the same class spells and same level of spell = same CR and thus same XP. On the other hand, I'm kinda thinking that perhaps that line about swapping spells was ALSO written before they changed thedesign paradigm on 9th level spells.

The MM says changing spells doesn’t change the CR, but the DMG disagrees (and it came out later).

See DMG p. 279 under “Innate Spellcasting and Spellcasting.”

I’m surprised no one has brought this up.
 




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