Metric & Markets

[drothgery]

In my estimation it will be a few generations yet until the imperial system is completely gone from Canada. My generation, or the one before it was mostly exposed to metric through education and imperial from our parents. Once we're all dead and gone everyday users of imperial will be mostly gone as well.

It won't be completely gone from Canada until and unless it's at least mostly gone from the US. The overwhelming majority of the Canadian population livng within a two-hour drive of the border pretty much guarantees that.

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

Another interesting base is vigesimal (base-20) because like 12, 20 (2·2·5) is an abundant number, and it relates to decimal better than duodecimal does (to people used to decimal, vigesimal feels like a combination of decimal and binary (base-2), with powers that are products of the decimal powers and the binary powers (20=2·10, 400=4·100, 8000=8·1000, etc.). It also has a word in english for a number equal to its base: a score. So, 145 in decimal becomes seven score and 5 in vigesimal.

Here in Mexico, we got taught Mayan numerals (base 20) along with Roman numerals in school... While I can understand the fact that they are probably better than arabic (and far better than roman) when it comes to doing large calculations, I used to have nightmares about them when I was a kid... Probably the hardest thing I remember about fourth grade

 

[Krensky]

Pardon me, but I know perfectly well where those units came from. I —and with me a small majority of the world's population— however, see no point in continuing their employ, either in 21st century reality (where we have since benefitted from a little thing called the industrial revolution), or —more relevantly to the topic— in generalised fantasy settings (where ploughs are as likely to be pulled by giant ants as they are by the exact species of bovine that appeared in medieval western europe, and where the area one man can successfully keep under cultivation is more influenced by how much of it he can defend from the terrors of the wilderness than how much of it he can work on a day).

Just because the imperial system offends you sense of aesthetics doesn't make it stupid or invalid or inferior to metric. SI (which is not the same as metric) is used in science because everything in it is measured to make math straight forward. In the real world, converting from old systems often isn't worth the effort. UK and EU train systems often use the old measurements on their plans of old sections because they need precise measurements and don't have the time or money to change them. My deed is in rods and furlongs.

The customary system continues in the US because, as a group, we never saw a benefit to confusing everyone in order to implement it. So stuck dual unit labels on everything and called it a day. If you want to convert feet, inches, and yards to metric for your game, have at it. You've amply proven you can do the math in your head. The largest market for these games, in English, is the US and Canada, followed by the rest of the Commonwealth. All of whom understand the imperial system.

For a fantasy game, we shouldn't use either and instead make up a measurement system that speaks the the needs, mindset, and culture of the people using it. But then we realize, to paraphrase David Drake, that that would be silly and confusing, and go back to using imperial for most things, with metric being used in a few sci-fi games.

 

[Aexalon]

Here in Mexico, we got taught Mayan numerals (base 20) along with Roman numerals in school... While I can understand the fact that they are probably better than arabic (and far better than roman) when it comes to doing large calculations, I used to have nightmares about them when I was a kid... Probably the hardest thing I remember about fourth grade

Vigesimal does have a multiplication table four times larger than decimal.

0    1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  A  B  C  D  E  F  G  H  I  J 10
                                                      
1    1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  A  B  C  D  E  F  G  H  I  J 10
2    2  4  6  8  A  C  E  G  I 10 12 14 16 18 1A 1C 1E 1G 1I 20
3    3  6  9  C  F  I 11 14 17 1A 1D 1G 1J 22 25 28 2B 2E 2H 30
4    4  8  C  G 10 14 18 1C 1G 20 24 28 2C 2G 30 34 38 3C 3G 40
5    5  A  F 10 15 1A 1F 20 25 2A 2F 30 35 3A 3F 40 45 4A 4F 50
6    6  C  I 14 1A 1G 22 28 2E 30 36 3C 3I 44 4A 4G 52 58 5E 60
7    7  E 11 18 1F 22 29 2G 33 3A 3H 44 4B 4I 55 5C 5J 66 6D 70
8    8  G 14 1C 20 28 2G 34 3C 40 48 4G 54 5C 60 68 6G 74 7C 80
9    9  I 17 1G 25 2E 33 3C 41 4A 4J 58 5H 66 6F 74 7D 82 8B 90
A    A 10 1A 20 2A 30 3A 40 4A 50 5A 60 6A 70 7A 80 8A 90 9A A0
B    B 12 1D 24 2F 36 3H 48 4J 5A 61 6C 73 7E 85 8G 97 9I A9 B0
C    C 14 1G 28 30 3C 44 4G 58 60 6C 74 7G 88 90 9C A4 AG B8 C0
D    D 16 1J 2C 35 3I 4B 54 5H 6A 73 7G 89 92 9F A8 B1 BE C7 D0
E    E 18 22 2G 3A 44 4I 5C 66 70 7E 88 92 9G AA B4 BI CC D6 E0
F    F 1A 25 30 3F 4A 55 60 6F 7A 85 90 9F AA B5 C0 CF DA E5 F0
G    G 1C 28 34 40 4G 5C 68 74 80 8G 9C A8 B4 C0 CG DC E8 F4 G0
H    H 1E 2B 38 45 52 5J 6G 7D 8A 97 A4 B1 BI CF DC E9 F6 G3 H0
I    I 1G 2E 3C 4A 58 66 74 82 90 9I AG BE CC DA E8 F6 G4 H2 I0
J    J 1I 2H 3G 4F 5E 6D 7C 8B 9A A9 B8 C7 D6 E5 F4 G3 H2 I1 J0
10  10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 A0 B0 C0 D0 E0 F0 G0 H0 I0 J0 100

You have my sympathies (it took me quite a while to write this thing down)! Being able to automatically cough up that D·H = B1 (13·17 = 221, oxlahun·uuclahun = huntubuluckal... ?) is no mean feat; I'm not sure if using those those dash&dot Mayan numerals makes it harder or easier; the pronunciation certainly doesn't seem to. Still, could be worse. Could be the cuneiform (clay tablet indentations) sexagesimal (base-60) of ancient Babylon, Akkad, and Sumer.

Multiplication table size is one thing senary really has going for it: it's really small, and doesn't have no-pattern rowns (like the 3, 7, D & H rows in vigesimal):

0    1  2  3  4  5 10
                     
1    1  2  3  4  5 10
2    2  4 10 12 14 20
3    3 10 13 20 23 30
4    4 12 20 24 32 40
5    5 14 23 32 41 50
10  10 20 30 40 50 100

 

[jmucchiello]

Lan-"by definition, my foot is a foot long, more or less"-efan

Even your foot is not always a foot long. Measure your foot first thing in the morning then stand for 8 hours and measure it again. This will teach you not to buy shoes early in the morning.

Actually, in the US, just about all bottled beverages are sold in liter based sizes. So, I see 2 liters (67.6 oz) on bottles of soda all the time.

For an example of why 12 is better than 10, Leo Frankowsky's Cross-Time Engineer stories have a great take on that. (Though I don't recommend those books to anyone who calls themselves a feminist. )

And as for gaming, I've always thought the 1 yard/1 meter square would work much better than 5 ft. squares. Then you can get 3 front line fighters in a 10ft corridor. I think GURPS uses 1 yard/1 meter hexes.

 

[Aexalon]

Just because the imperial system offends you sense of aesthetics doesn't make it stupid or invalid or inferior to metric. SI (which is not the same as metric) is used in science because everything in it is measured to make math straight forward. In the real world, converting from old systems often isn't worth the effort. UK and EU train systems often use the old measurements on their plans of old sections because they need precise measurements and don't have the time or money to change them. My deed is in rods and furlongs.

I never called the imperial system stupid —I called it outdated— nor invalid ; It's very "valid", since some 400 million people are stuck using it, because of traditionalism, conservatism, pattriotism and/or chauvinism; because of trade dependency on non-metric economies; and/or —possibly— simply because they don't know any better.

On the matter of aesthetics: the imperial system could have been a thing of beauty if they had stuck with duodecimal throughout the whole thing. This, of course, is the reason why Paul Maclean's 12-fingered aliens in post #7 have that math advantage over us: they likely never had to reconcile a uniform-base numeric system with a radix equal to their digit count —and the uniform measuring system (beneficial for nuclear/spacefaring societies) logically rooted in it— with one which clings to "human scale units" as its main feature and whose only logical claim to superiority is the partial inclusion of a numeric system which has a highly-composite number as a radix (argued to be beneficial for pre-industrial societies).

The customary system continues in the US because, as a group, we never saw a benefit to confusing everyone in order to implement it. So stuck dual unit labels on everything and called it a day. If you want to convert feet, inches, and yards to metric for your game, have at it. You've amply proven you can do the math in your head. The largest market for these games, in English, is the US and Canada, followed by the rest of the Commonwealth. All of whom understand the imperial system.

If the pro-imperial faction cannot see that, in the 21st century, it would serve their economical, cultural and scientific development best to employ a system of measurement that favours scientists over one that favours carpenters... sigh. The rest of us prefer looking to the future, not the past.

In summary: on a global scale, the imperial system is nothing more than a "proud nail". One 4E could have hammered in as well as it did many other ones.

For a fantasy game, we shouldn't use either and instead make up a measurement system that speaks the the needs, mindset, and culture of the people using it. But then we realize, to paraphrase David Drake, that that would be silly and confusing, and go back to using imperial for most things, with metric being used in a few sci-fi games.

Thank you for denigrating the effort we put into creating the details of our campaign world. Fortunately, others can appreciate someone posting the fruits of their labour for others to share in and/or criticise constructively.

 

[Nai_Calus]

I use what I use because: It's what's used in my country, and I do not have the means to travel to other ones where it isn't. I have no actual pressing reason to learn anything else, especially when from the point of view of my daily usage of it, there isn't anything actually wrong with it.

Sure, from the outside it probably looks like a confusing nonsensical mess. Using it? Uh... Nope. I have never once thought 'You know this makes no sense' while using it. Because, well, it's what I use. I was raised on it, never had a problem with it and really don't understand what the heck is supposed to be so godawful about it. I guess it drags metric users into dark alleyways and beats them? Seriously. Why am I so horribly wrong?

Especially C vs F. C doesn't seem to be any more rational and functional than F, and the degrees are *bigger*, which doesn't seem to help accuracy with the gross differences measured by saying 'It's 83 degrees outside today'. You can say -459.67 F as easily as you can -273.15 C, so why does it even matter? I don't even think about the freezing or boiling points of water when I'm saying I like the temperature to be around 65 degress (F), so why do I even care if having them at 0 and 100 'makes sense', especially when neither of those is actually accurate? (Especially given the massive variability of the actual boiling point of water...)

Come to think of it, with all this emphasis on 'its better because the math is easier', why haven't C and K been thrown out already in favour of more 'sensible' systems? They're currently defining them using abs 0 and the triple point of Vienna Standard Mean Ocean Water, which has led to the aformentioned thing with neither 0 or 100 actually being what they claim. Why not define absolute 0 as 0, the triple point of VSMOW as, say, 500(Or 1000 to make it all cute with the metric system), and defining a degree as 1/500th(Or 1/1000th) of the difference between the two?

Actually, no, seriously, why not? Is it impractical somehow? (In a way OTHER than 'but you'd have to learn a new temperature scale', well yeah guess what I'd have to do to switch to C) Is my logic flawed and I'm not seeing it? What?

Edit: This thread is making me want to use the D'ni number system from the Myst series as the number system for some race or other in my campaign.

 

[drothgery]

Actually, in the US, just about all bottled beverages are sold in liter based sizes. So, I see 2 liters (67.6 oz) on bottles of soda all the time.

Err... no. 2-liter bottles of soda (and, more rarely, 1-liter, 3-liter, and half-liters, as well as liters of wine) are pretty common. But bottled water, milk and juice are sold in gallons and half-gallons (and more rarely quarts, pints, 12 ounce, and 8 ounce bottles). Beer is typically sold in 12 or 16 ounce bottles. Soda is available in 20 ounce, 16 ounce, 12 ounce, and 8 ounce bottles. Both beer and soda are ubiquitious in 12 ounce cans.

 

[Aexalon]

Edit: This thread is making me want to use the D'ni number system from the Myst series as the number system for some race or other in my campaign.

Progress / win! Also, thank you for bringing the D'ni to my attention.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

also it is easier to count on fingers which is the main argument for using decimal, and once you are used to it, its difficult to think in other dimensions...

if humans had 12 fingers however, i bet all in the world would use 12 as a base, because it is indeed superior to base 12...

babylonians used base-60 which is even superior to base 12. However they used 10 as a "sub base" which i blame on the fingers^^

Local editions in germany used metric systems. It used a good aproximation of 10 feet equals 1.5m. I use miles however because of flavour reasons.