Miasma effect

[jodyjohnson]

Looking at Druid 4th spell Miasma from Masters of the Wild I'm thinking "does this spell do what it says it does?".

Basically, a no save spell that causes a drowning/suffocation effect on the target. But it's the flavor text that gets me. Essentially says the target can do nothing but die unless he makes a unlikely string of Constitution checks.

So what happens while the 2xCon part of the spell is grinding down?

1. Nothing special - target may act normally while 'holding his breath'. The descriptions of suffocation and drowning imply no restrictions on actions.

2. Targets is Dazed. The normal game term for being unable to act but still defending.

3. Target is Stunned. The normal game term for being unable to act and defend.

 

[kreynolds]

The spell descriptions says you can't do much more than cough or spit, but I'm not sure what kind of a rules impact that has, if any at all.

 

[mkletch]

Target can hold breath to act, making saving throws for holding breath as normal.

Target can cough and choke, doing nothing, but not having to make saves either. This also has the effect of 'resetting the counter' for holding one's breath.

So basically, act, making saves as necessary, and skip a round to catch your breath if the saves are too risky.

-Fletch!

 

[Stalker0]

I'd say this question is coming up about once every 2 weeks now

My advice for miasma, is heavily change the wording, or toss it. Right now, its just too vague and too powerful.

 

[Mulkhoran]

Target can hold breath to act, making saving throws for holding breath as normal.

Target can cough and choke, doing nothing, but not having to make saves either. This also has the effect of 'resetting the counter' for holding one's breath.

So basically, act, making saves as necessary, and skip a round to catch your breath if the saves are too risky.

-Fletch!

I'm honestly just curious about this, since you've said it in every Miasma thread. You don't think that coughing and choking counts as 'voluntary resumption of breathing' ?

 

[jodyjohnson]

So what's the verdict on actions?

OK I found last week's thread,

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31868

Serves me right for going on holiday.

The Fortitude save is fine as unofficially errata'd by the author.

So what are people allowing as actions.

For those that allow actions (subject not dazed or stunned) what can't they do?

Verbal spellcasting and speech seems to be obvious. What else?

 

[mkletch]

I'm honestly just curious about this, since you've said it in every Miasma thread. You don't think that coughing and choking counts as 'voluntary resumption of breathing' ?

I do think that the coughing and choking counts as "voluntary resumption of breathing", and here's why. Normally, breathing is a free action. What miasma does is make it a full round action. So, as long as you hold your breath, you act. If you take a full round action to catch your breath, that means you've stopped holding your breath.

Now, you cannot cast a spell with a verbal component while holding your breath or coughing/choking, so it shuts down most spellcasters except spontaneous casters with Silent Spell, or those that have Silent spells prepared. That is, IMO, why vocalize was removed in 3E - it was replaced with a feat, and to include the spell would invalidate the feat (almost like how haste rules over Quickened Spell).

Is misama broken? No. Should it allow a save? Probably, but that does not mean it is broken. If you treat the spell as "hold your breath until you die", well, that is a bit harsh. But you still have several rounds for someone to dispel it (basically the argument, which I do not agree with BTW, that haste is balanced because slow is theoretically available to everyone). In any case, I do not believe that miasma works like that.

Sure, it is powerful, but so is wall of force (no reflex save to avoid being trapped), or any of the power word spells. Any spell used in exactly the right situation will be nearly as powerful (e.g. fireball a rope or wooden bridge; the resulting falling damage has no save).

Many creatures (whole categories, in fact) do not care about breathing: construct, elementals, ooze, plant and undead. The spell is totally ineffective against these. And remember that most "save or die" spells are at 5th level. This is a "no save, but you don't die immediately" for the harsher interpretation, and "no save, but you are a bit limited in how or what you do" for how I read it.

So, after this treatise, I'll wrap by saying that miasma merely says that you can hold you breath, not that you must. To me, that means there is an option built into the spell, that the victim chooses. The only penalties outlined in miasma are if you hold your breath to avoid losing the action. The spell would have been more clear if they had left out the in-spell rules reference for holding your breath and made you look it up in the DMG. Aside from flavor text, the spell description could be "Do nothing, or hold you breath". Since they are exclusive of each other, doing nothing counts as "no longer holding your breath" and resets the Fort save if necessary.

-Fletch!

 

[Mulkhoran]

I do think that the coughing and choking counts as "voluntary resumption of breathing",


......

The only penalties outlined in miasma are if you hold your breath to avoid losing the action.
-Fletch!

Great treatise. But it says if you resume breathing during the spell, you fall unconscious, to 0 hp, and start dying.

That was sort of the impetus for my question. If you start breathing again, you don't just reset the breath counter. You die.

 

[Noldor Elf]

I think it's just like Mulkhoran said.
Since Miasma fills your throat with unbreathable gas there is no air for you to reset the breath counter (just like being underwater and unable to come to the surface for extra air). So if you stop holding your breath (either voluntarily or forced (can't make a required con check)), you drop to 0 hp and start dying.

 

[mkletch]

It says you cannot do much more than cough and choke. The "voluntarily resuming breathing" bit doesn't seem to fit with that. Line 3 of the spells says you can cough and spit, a later line says you cannot. With a slight contradiction like this, I guess it really comes down to a DM call. We as a group unanimously interpreted it as I described above (you can cough and spit; why would holding your breath cancel this?) So, this could theoretically be filed as a house rule. I guess I never read the spell quite the way you have, but I have a tendency to simply fix contradictions. Thoughts?

Another thing to consider would be reviving the character. Lifeguards revive nearly drowned, unconscious people every day. Another possible HR could be a heal check to stabilize the character before death.

-Fletch!