Miasma: Slow Inevitable Death?
- Thread starter Vellinax
- Start date
Greatwyrm
Been here a while...
I've taken a good long look at this spell. I'm currently playing an 8th level druid, so I have some vested self-interest here. I agree, the spell is very powerful. But let's take a look at some of the limitations.
First, Miasma requires a breathing target, with some kind of mouth and/or throat. This effectively eliminates undead, constructs, oozes, most plants, and most elementals.
Second, your survivability after being hit with Miasma is directly dependent upon your Spell Resistance or your Constitution. This limits its usefulness against animals, most of which are rather healthy. The same can be said of many giants. Against dragons, you're hit on both ends, usually SR and a decent CON. Heck, a newborn White Dragon even has a CON of 13. Miasma can still be used on all these categories of creatures, but it will probably be hit-or-miss.
This leaves us with humanoids, monstrous humanoids, vermin, fey, beasts, outsiders, and magical beasts (forgive me if I've missed someone). These categories are where I see the bulk of targets for Miasma coming from.
Of these categories, let's look at the situations where you want to spend one fourth level spell to eliminate one of these creatures. A seventh level druid should have plenty of other options to handle most of these creatures. Shillelagh is first level. Produce Flame is second. Greater Magic Fang and a good choice on Wild Shape is plenty icky for third level. Flame Strike, like Miasma, is fourth, but gives instant gratification, possibly over two or more targets.
So why even choose Miasma? Enemy spellcasters. Miasma looks like a response to the situation that druid's don't have access to the cheapest magic inhibiting spell that all other primary spell users get--silence. Miasma inhibits someone who you probably already intend to kill from casting most spells. As above, the druid has many other weapons available, most at lower levels and effective against more opponents, to kill threats quickly.
Also, don't cast this on someone you need info from later. Of course, you could use Miasma to wait for the target to pass out and then use Dispel Magic (IIRC it auto-dispells your own spells). A third and fourth level spell combo over several rounds isn't a very elegant way to take a prisoner.
Finally, let's not forget it's poison. This spell should see fairly limited use by good characters in the first place.
First, Miasma requires a breathing target, with some kind of mouth and/or throat. This effectively eliminates undead, constructs, oozes, most plants, and most elementals.
Second, your survivability after being hit with Miasma is directly dependent upon your Spell Resistance or your Constitution. This limits its usefulness against animals, most of which are rather healthy. The same can be said of many giants. Against dragons, you're hit on both ends, usually SR and a decent CON. Heck, a newborn White Dragon even has a CON of 13. Miasma can still be used on all these categories of creatures, but it will probably be hit-or-miss.
This leaves us with humanoids, monstrous humanoids, vermin, fey, beasts, outsiders, and magical beasts (forgive me if I've missed someone). These categories are where I see the bulk of targets for Miasma coming from.
Of these categories, let's look at the situations where you want to spend one fourth level spell to eliminate one of these creatures. A seventh level druid should have plenty of other options to handle most of these creatures. Shillelagh is first level. Produce Flame is second. Greater Magic Fang and a good choice on Wild Shape is plenty icky for third level. Flame Strike, like Miasma, is fourth, but gives instant gratification, possibly over two or more targets.
So why even choose Miasma? Enemy spellcasters. Miasma looks like a response to the situation that druid's don't have access to the cheapest magic inhibiting spell that all other primary spell users get--silence. Miasma inhibits someone who you probably already intend to kill from casting most spells. As above, the druid has many other weapons available, most at lower levels and effective against more opponents, to kill threats quickly.
Also, don't cast this on someone you need info from later. Of course, you could use Miasma to wait for the target to pass out and then use Dispel Magic (IIRC it auto-dispells your own spells). A third and fourth level spell combo over several rounds isn't a very elegant way to take a prisoner.
Finally, let's not forget it's poison. This spell should see fairly limited use by good characters in the first place.
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Miasma seems like one of those spells which is balanced under the WotC paradigm but which is greatly overpowered by parties who play more creatively.
Under the WotC paradigm, the spell doesn't cause any damage for ~20 rounds, the length of the average combat. Thus, the monster is likely to be dead by the time they would be suffocating. If the monster wins, then the PCs get the joy of knowing their foe is big dead. Looking at it this way, the spell is good for stopping verbal components, yelling for help, etc. Not bad.
However, think of alternate tactics. A Hasted, Invisible druid sneaks up on a target. Cast Miasma and then an escape spell. Wait for target to die. A relatively risk-free way of taking someone down, regardless (at first-level approximation) of their level. (Obviously higher level types are more likely to have a Dispel or other defense, but a 20th level fighter on his own is screwed.)
I would add a Fortitude save, made when the target stops holding their breath (so they don't know if it's safe to breathe or not until they try it). Still a very nice spell without being an absolute killer.
Under the WotC paradigm, the spell doesn't cause any damage for ~20 rounds, the length of the average combat. Thus, the monster is likely to be dead by the time they would be suffocating. If the monster wins, then the PCs get the joy of knowing their foe is big dead. Looking at it this way, the spell is good for stopping verbal components, yelling for help, etc. Not bad.
However, think of alternate tactics. A Hasted, Invisible druid sneaks up on a target. Cast Miasma and then an escape spell. Wait for target to die. A relatively risk-free way of taking someone down, regardless (at first-level approximation) of their level. (Obviously higher level types are more likely to have a Dispel or other defense, but a 20th level fighter on his own is screwed.)
I would add a Fortitude save, made when the target stops holding their breath (so they don't know if it's safe to breathe or not until they try it). Still a very nice spell without being an absolute killer.
I think people are missing 2 things about Miasma. One it's a Druid spell of 4th level... so a 7th level Druid can cast it. Next, it's a NO SAVE spell at 4th level.
I play a LOT of wilderness and there are LOTS of Druids running around both in and out of the party.
Using this spell let's take a party of 12th level guys against 2 7th level Druids (They work in teams too)...
The bird on the left casts Miasma on the guy not in heavy armor in the Surprise round.... and you with the Holy Symbol a rat casts it on you. OK Roll Initiative.
Now in my party for example (4 iconic... like the one in my GAME..) is DEAD. Gone. No save... so good SR at 12th level... they are just toast. Just because the cannot hold their breath for tons of time because they did not min/max out their Con... and there are no potions of Dispel Magic... they are dead and if the druids win Init so will the rogue die. The fighter CAN hold his breath long enough to get killed by Flame Strikes and the Animal Companions of the Druid.
Now... name a 4th level spell with NO SAVE that can do this? Party of 12th level guys wiped out no sweat...
Give this to PC druids and your Bady guys have the same problem.
BAAAAAROken!!!!!!!
I play a LOT of wilderness and there are LOTS of Druids running around both in and out of the party.
Using this spell let's take a party of 12th level guys against 2 7th level Druids (They work in teams too)...
The bird on the left casts Miasma on the guy not in heavy armor in the Surprise round.... and you with the Holy Symbol a rat casts it on you. OK Roll Initiative.
Now in my party for example (4 iconic... like the one in my GAME..) is DEAD. Gone. No save... so good SR at 12th level... they are just toast. Just because the cannot hold their breath for tons of time because they did not min/max out their Con... and there are no potions of Dispel Magic... they are dead and if the druids win Init so will the rogue die. The fighter CAN hold his breath long enough to get killed by Flame Strikes and the Animal Companions of the Druid.
Now... name a 4th level spell with NO SAVE that can do this? Party of 12th level guys wiped out no sweat...
Give this to PC druids and your Bady guys have the same problem.
BAAAAAROken!!!!!!!
Greatwyrm
Been here a while...
Well, if I get four castings of a 4th level spell to work with, I could get the same effect from Ice Storm. Sor/Wiz 4--Drd 5. Over 4 castings, 20d6, no save, SR applies. You probably end up with the same people dead, but without the 2x CON rounds to try to do something about it.
Since it's cold and impact damage, it also works on many more types of creatures.
Also, Miasma need the Divine Focus component. That means no casting while Wild Shaped, even if you do have the feat that lets you do that.
I'll have to work a little while longer to find a 4x 4th level killer for druids.
Since it's cold and impact damage, it also works on many more types of creatures.
Also, Miasma need the Divine Focus component. That means no casting while Wild Shaped, even if you do have the feat that lets you do that.
I'll have to work a little while longer to find a 4x 4th level killer for druids.
DevoutlyApathetic
First Post
You know what a Druids focus is right? Some misletoe...I make a variety of misletoe necklaces for different sized animals and voila, casting while wildshaped. Sure, you might need somebody to hang it around your neck and the snake shifted druid is out of luck, but it's not much of restriction.....
the Jester
Legend
Masters of the Wild is the best splatbook from my perspective, but Miasma is the one thing I spotted at first reading that seemed broken.
Instead of thinking about in terms of the pcs casting it, think of the worst-case scenario for a pc...
A solitary pc encounters a druid enemy. The enemy casts miasma. Even if the solitary pc kills the druid, he dies. If he's 30th level but has no SR, he dies. If there isn't a handy ally to cast dispel magic, or a handy item to use to dispel it, he dies.
Now think of the worst-case scenario for a dm...
The big nemesis? Dead. Catch him without allies around and he suffocates even if he runs off. Yeah, yeah- "Give him SR," you say, but if all your npc bad guys have SR then you're detracting from their individuality.
Nope, I say give it a Fort save....
Instead of thinking about in terms of the pcs casting it, think of the worst-case scenario for a pc...
A solitary pc encounters a druid enemy. The enemy casts miasma. Even if the solitary pc kills the druid, he dies. If he's 30th level but has no SR, he dies. If there isn't a handy ally to cast dispel magic, or a handy item to use to dispel it, he dies.
Now think of the worst-case scenario for a dm...
The big nemesis? Dead. Catch him without allies around and he suffocates even if he runs off. Yeah, yeah- "Give him SR," you say, but if all your npc bad guys have SR then you're detracting from their individuality.
Nope, I say give it a Fort save....
Rashak Mani
First Post
I´m bringing back this thread...
"you prevent her from doing much more than coughing and spitting"
This seems to indicate that the spell prevents anything being done by the victim ... or just vocal stuff ?
Overall I think this spell is very powerful... how many big monsters might have SR ? Not many... even if they do eventually keep alive long enough to finish the spell its not easy. Without dispel magic its deadly.
Spell Duration 5 rnds per level in higher levels is a guaranteed killer...
Lets wait for the errata ?
"you prevent her from doing much more than coughing and spitting"
This seems to indicate that the spell prevents anything being done by the victim ... or just vocal stuff ?
Overall I think this spell is very powerful... how many big monsters might have SR ? Not many... even if they do eventually keep alive long enough to finish the spell its not easy. Without dispel magic its deadly.
Spell Duration 5 rnds per level in higher levels is a guaranteed killer...
Lets wait for the errata ?
