mid-level save progression

[Kerrick]

Have you ever made a PrC (or even a core class) where you can't quite justify giving them a good save, but they don't quite deserve a bad save? They should get a mid-level save, right? So why don't we have one? We have low, middle, and high BABs, but why do we only have low and high saves? Seems to me that if we have a mid-level save progression (+1/2 levels, or +1, +1, +2, +2, etc.), it would balance things out quite a bit more, especially at post-20th level, when the disparity between high and low saves becomes most apparent. You wouldn't need creative choices of PrCs, or magic items to cover the gap, and you wouldn't have to go with that absurd system they have now.

 

[HellHound]

We do have a mid save progression - in d20 modern.

Just take it and dump it into standard d20

 

[Afrodyte]

Have you ever made a PrC (or even a core class) where you can't quite justify giving them a good save, but they don't quite deserve a bad save? They should get a mid-level save, right? So why don't we have one? We have low, middle, and high BABs, but why do we only have low and high saves? Seems to me that if we have a mid-level save progression (+1/2 levels, or +1, +1, +2, +2, etc.), it would balance things out quite a bit more, especially at post-20th level, when the disparity between high and low saves becomes most apparent. You wouldn't need creative choices of PrCs, or magic items to cover the gap, and you wouldn't have to go with that absurd system they have now.

I can't really answer why there aren't any medium saves, except perhaps for simplicity or "balance" reasons, but I have figured out a medium save progression that gels well with the others (capping at +9, which is solidly in the middle of +6 and +12 for poor and good saves, respectively). It pretty much increases by +1 per 2 levels, with a notable exception that's hard to explain purely mathematically. Think of it more as a rhyming scheme in poetry, and the pattern is easier to get. It goes like this:

Base medium save by level
1st +1
2nd +1
3rd +2
4th +2
5th +3
6th +3
7th +3
8th +4
9th +4
10th +5
11th +5
12th +6
13th +6
14th +6
15th +7
16th +7
17th +8
18th +8
19th +9
20th +9

 

[DrSpunj]

The one I use is mathematically based, like the UA fractional bonuses for BAB & Saves.

It's simple: 1 + (Level * 0.4), rounded down, and fits nicely between the Poor Save (0+(Lvl*0.33)) and the Good Save (2+(Lvl*0.5)), IMO:
+1
+1
+2
+2
+3
+3
+3
+4
+4
+5
+5
+5
+6
+6
+7
+7
+7
+8
+8
+9

I think I first spotted this in the Wheel of Time d20 book. Hope that helps.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[iceifur]

Since a poor save is (HD x 1/3) and a good save is ((HD x 1/2) + 2), I'd say that an average save would be exactly between the two ((HD x 5/12) + 1). Works out close to DrSpunj's, but I like fractions (they're neater).

-B-

 

[Kerrick]

I guess I should have been a little clearer... I already have an idea for the mid-level progression (the one Afrodyte put up - I tend toward simplicity rather than mathematical precision), but what I really want to know is, do you guys think it's viable? I mean, would you use take PrCs (or possibly even core classes) with a mid-level save?

 

[Afrodyte]

I guess I should have been a little clearer... I already have an idea for the mid-level progression (the one Afrodyte put up - I tend toward simplicity rather than mathematical precision), but what I really want to know is, do you guys think it's viable? I mean, would you use take PrCs (or possibly even core classes) with a mid-level save?

I think it's viable even for core classes, so sure, I think it works for PrCs, especially for those that can have more than one function in a party.

 

[SableWyvern]

Why would anyone reject a class simply because it contains a mid-level save progression?

Classes aren't rejected outright for having a bad save, and virtually every class has at least one of them.

The only reason I could see why someone might be against mid-level saves on principle is that it isn't "Official". In which case, the entire new class is irrelevant, regardless of the save progressions.

Unless you do something like name the class "Ultimate Gymnast", and then give a mid-range Ref. save, I really don't think this could be an issue.

 

[Kerrick]

The only reason I could see why someone might be against mid-level saves on principle is that it isn't "Official". In which case, the entire new class is irrelevant, regardless of the save progressions.

Yeah, some people are notorious sticklers for "canon" and RAW. *shrug* I don't know why I'm so worried about it, beyond the fact that I'm a game designer and I'm considering doing PrCs with mid-level saves.